Great post, Rob. I think most people forget that the speed of sound is approximately 1,796,731.2 fps... of course, that's just approximately. But think about it... almost 1.8 MILLION feet per second... and you think by making your arrow 20 fps faster you're going to beat an animal's reflexes? :D Chuck Adams wrote in a column about the very point Rob alluded to: sometimes it's better to back UP and shoot at an animla from outside his "go berserk" zone than right inside his danger zone. Think about when you hear a very unexpected sound... if it's 40 or 50 yards away, it gets your interest but it's not life-or-death, turn you inside out... But remember back on the times someone had some fun by sneaking up on you and yelling out right behind you and how you reacted. Just food for thought.
Nice little thread about this subject on AT right now. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1258498
Spot on Rob! We're on the same page…look forward to traveling farther down that path. I agree Bruce, especially considering the pure biology/science being discussed here. It just shouldn't be possible. But we know that's not the case. I think Rob said it best, "We both know there's more to it but not everyone does". He also said, "There’s a balance there somewhere". I would agree. I would be curious to know how many of the “slow/heavy” guys on here have killed big game from the ground via spot and stalk. I’d bet there’s more of the haven’t than haves. Maybe Steve wouldn't mind giving us his "tree" verses "ground" ratio ( I'm not trying to put him on the spot. I respect his dedication and honesty). Chief, good honest input. Thanks! MAinfantry, as a military man you should google “Kinetic Energy Penetrators”. These small, dense, depleted uranium arrows traveling super fast are capable of punching through composite tank armor. They sure beat the heck out of shooting an equal and opposite force (another heavy tank) at an opposing force. I can hear the commander now, “Load another Abrams in the smoothbore sargent. He’s a slow mover so let’s hit him with everything we’ve got!” Designed for maximum Kinetic Energy, these 41 pound fast movers “work” like champs. The speed of sound is actually 1125 f/s in 20 degree Celsius air. That's about 4 to 5 times the speed of our modern bows. That means sound waves arrive 4 to 5 times sooner than our arrows. If a fox can hear a mole under a blanket of snow from 50 yards away, chances are he’ll hear a arrow being drawn across a rest. We are talking "any perceived" sound here. The concept of a "quieter" bow, in my opinion, is a joke- especially, considering the evolution of animals and their superb ability to detect sound (from great distances) as a survival mechanism. With regard to the things we hunt, there is nothing we can do to totally silence our equipment beyond not shooting it, and that wouldn't be any fun! Right? Has anyone ever had an arrow fall from your rest and hit your arm? Was it the sound or the movement that caused the deer to look your direction? On the scale of things, if one states, "and you think by making your arrow 20 fps faster you're going to beat an animal's reflexes", he then should conversely state, "and you think by making your arrow 20 fps slower you're going to beat an animal's reflexes". Call me crazy here, but I will, knowing what I know, personally hedge towards the former…all things considered and everything else being equal. Yes, we can become better hunters by simply deploying better concealment (distance to/from the target falls into this category). We can also employ better masking techniques like hunting near noisy waterways, among rustling tree leaves (in treestands), near busy roadways, etc. Obviously, the more white noise we can introduce to our hunting situations the better off we'll be. Hunters in the Amazon, for example, drop plant seeds (rice) to attract birds to the forest floor. The feeding birds mask movement and sound. Monkeys are shot with blow guns easily as a result. Outside of treestands, how many guys consciously situate themselves in areas where sounds and movements are masked? The guys that do could perhaps be the successful longbow and recurve shooters, eh? There are just so many variables within this game we play. It’s extremely difficult to overcome them all, 100% of the time. I know for a fact that I am not going to topple a Mac truck with a fast moving toothpick. On the other hand, taking a crotch rocket with a slow moving log isn’t very probable either. The hunters that do it and do it well recognize the multitude of variables and adjust accordingly. You can bet I won’t be shooting my 70 pound bow and 450 grain arrow at a cape buff next week. Nor will I shoot my 84 pounder and 816 grain arrow at a white springbok. Knock on wood I’m lucky enough to collect both.
Darn metric system. Saw m/s and thought it was miles per second... Why doesn't the rest of the world do what WE do instead of trying to get us to do what THEY do? LOL!
I've shot at a few foxes. 50 yds was the farthest and inside of 20 yds was the closest. None of them made the slightest reaction to the arrow until it either hit them or the ground inches from them. None of them knew I was there. This was with slow, heavy arrows with a non-flat trajectory. Only one was from a tree, the others were from the ground. This doesn't mean light, fast flat trajectory arrows wouldn't have worked, I'm sure they would have. It just means I didn't use them .
Not too many but I've taken a few from the ground, 2 whitetails. I haven't hunted out west enough to have the experiences on the ground that many of you have had. My dad on the other hand did It for 25 years shooting his "heavy" set ups with his recurve and or longbow taking elk, bear, muley's, antelope out west from the ground. His Bighorn recurve shot right around 200 fps which Is moving for a recurve and his Howard Hill longbow was much, much slower but still did the trick like many others have done using the same kind of set ups. His shots were never over 20 yards, most being In that 12 to 15 yard range. People of these days say you can't take a Couse Deer at close range and that you should be taking shots from much farther distances being they love to drop at the shot which Is very true. My dad and 2 other buddy's were successful In New Mexico taking 3 P&Y bucks with all of them using recurves with heavy arrow set ups. All 3 of these P&Y Couse Deer were taken at 10 yards. I could go on and on with the success that traditional bowhunters have had with heavy slow set ups. It can be done, heavy quiet arrow set ups and quieter bows can get the job done too. These speedy compounds of today to me are "loud" compared to traditional bows. Quiet these compounds up by putting a heavier arrow on them and you might get less duck and move from these jumpy animals that are known for being jittery. I never said light arrow set ups were not going to work. All I know Is heavy arrow set ups will and can get the job done even out of slow traditional bows. In my honest opinion people love stretching the limit and look for reasons to shoot farther. Not saying anyone on here does this but I've heard talk of other people trying to make excuses to stretch their range.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with this concept being a joke. I don't deny that it's practically impossible to produce a shot that our quarry won't hear, but from what I've seen, a deer that is totally relaxed and not on alert will take the time to look to find the source of a soft unfamiliar noise. It'll be in the process of going from relaxed to full alert, but then it's too late. That's exactly what I've witnessed at the soft "fump" that I get when I touch the release. I'm sure the deer's reaction would be different if my Drenalin sounded like my son-in-law's beat-up old Oneida - like dropping a wood block in a metal trash can. It's the same for us. If you're standing in a quiet room looking out the window and someone behind you makes a soft sound, you'll register the sound and you'll look around to see what it was. You might even jerk your head around to see what it was. If someone behind you bangs on a metal trash can lid with a mallet, you'll just about jump through the window out of pure self-preservation instinct and then you'll wheel around to see what it was.
Ahhhhhh. So you're saying there's nothing wrong with your "effective range" getting shorter (in lieu of - longer) over the years?
I know of one light fast guy who has lost over 8(at least 8) elk in the last ten years He's lost just as many deer too, maybe he just sucks
I have shot 4 deer from the ground with my compound bow. I was shooting a 2004 Reflex Excursion with a 70 lb draw weight, 28 inch draw length and arrows that weighed a total of 375 grains in the 2007-2009 scenarios. In the 2002 scenario I was shooting a Bear Whitetail Master at 70 pounds. 1) 2002- I was bloodtrailing a buck from the previous day when all of the sudden I turn around and see another buck coming through the ravine. I step behind a tree and draw. He stops and looks at me from about 6-7 yards and I put an arrow through him. PS...I will never have two blood trails running at the same time again, because the second blood trail almost cost me my first deer/buck with a bow. That buck did not have a chance to react to my shot. 2) 2007-I saw two doe at 40 yards when I was coming down the powerlines. Well they saw me as well. I laid down and crawled up to the 30 yard mark below a small hill. I knew they were looking right at me so I drew my bow and just stood up quickly and focused the pin on the biggest does sweet spot and let her rip. That doe went from broadside to severely quartering away in a darn split second. Thank god my arrow hit "perfect" and it ripped through one lung and clipped the does heart. She was dead within 10-20 seconds flat and only 25 yards. 3) 2008-I saw a doe feeding and got within 15 yards. She looked right at me as I drew. She spun quickly as I shot and I hit her slightly quartering toward me...hit one lung and liver. Found her 150 yards away in a creek dead. 4) 2009-I stalk hunted a doe this past year in the middle of a grass field from 200-250 yards off. I got up within 35 yards of her and launched what I thought was a 30 yard shot. I was wrong and my arrow sailed right below her. But she sensed something was not right...thank god my bow was quiet on the draw and release. She walked off a bit and crawled up and closed the distance to 30 yards. I rose up and placed the 30 yard pin on her and shot. As the arrow was released she spun in mid-air I swear to goodness and the arrow hit at an extreme quartering away yet again...the arrow lodged so weird that it clipped her lung/heart and went up through the off-side neck as she fell and impaled herself. She was dead within 10 seconds. Those are my stories of ground shot deer, not sure whose argument they support, just some facts of my hunts.
I've killed four deer from the ground. Three sitting and one stalk. Two were when I was a young teenager and I highly doubt my bow was shooting more than 180 fps...probably less. The other two have come in recent years with a bow shooting around 270 fps with a 425 grain arrow. I don't know what is "fast", and really I don't care. I try to shoot what my bow likes, and what kills whitetails effectively. All shots were under 25 yards. That is not much to base a conclusion on, so not sure if it helps the discussion. I have shot at 5 deer from the ground and killed 4. One I missed. Nerves can sure get to a 12 year old.
For discussion sake, let’s define “spot” and “stalk” as “seeing” and then “advancing” to a position within effective bow range. Numbers 2, 3, and 4 of Brett’s input qualify. Seeing and then waiting for a “passing shot” is not what I’m asking for. If you have experience on something other than white-tailed deer, that’s even better. Brett, with your set up at 70 pounds and pushing 375 grains, I’d say you fall into the light/ fast group. You’re only 25 grains away from the specs used to determining the IBO speed rating for your bow. Steve, could you please give us more detail regarding your ground hunts. Can the definition above be applied to either of your successful hunts? It’s difficult to advance within an animal’s defensive zone (approximately a forty yard radius) without being detected. The moment a hunter is detected, the animal becomes alert- survival game on. The fact that your father was capable of getting within 12-15 yards speaks highly of his hunting prowess-shooting each and every one with a recurve adds grandeur to an already amazing feat. In your father’s case, I’d say it had more to do with the Indian and less to do with the bow/setup. I salute your father! I’ve spent the last twenty five years trying to spot and stalk a pronghorn with my compounds in the open plains of Colorado. It’s a feat I have yet to accomplish (I have no desire to kill one from a blind at a waterhole). They’re tough little buggers to sneak on, and their defensive radius seems to be more like 100 yards. I’ve launched 60 yard shots on fully aware goats. Those shots were no where close. If you could get your dad to tell the intricacies of his adventure, I would be nothing but ears. Chief, I fully understand what you’re saying, and I respect your accomplishments with deer as well. But, I specifically stated “the evolution of animals”. Your points involve deer exclusively. The two of us are not comparing apples to apples. In your three years of bow hunting, have you ever hunted deer in an area where they are heavily preyed upon by lions, wolves and bears? Do you think the deer of such areas are less or more skittish at the slightest sound? Which animal is more frightening by noise, a black bear or a brown bear? Who’s to say the drop of a pin could be the same as a wood block in a trash can in certain situations? Ok, I’ll say it, hopefully without sounding like a snob…, me. I’ve witnessed too much... Gary, your friend doesn’t suck….he’s hitting the target, right? However, I will question his sanity. It’s insane to do the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome each and every time. You might consider taking his bow away. Be careful though, I wouldn’t want you to become his first trophy. Jeff, hands down and if you can pull off the shot, closer will always be better! In this scenario, however, who has better position for a shot, Rob or the camera woman?
You know my answer already Will but I'll tell anyway. Both of the whitetails I shot I spot and stalked. One was In a bedding area In tall grass and the other was a spot and stalk done In a bean field. The bean field one was awesome and very exciting. Both were doe's. The very next year my brother did a spot and stalk In the exact same bean field and arrowed a doe at 15 yards. It was his 1st deer ever, he was 12 years old. Now that's something If you ask me at that age. As for my dad all of his above hunts I listed were spot and stalk besides the Couse Deer. The Couse were all shot via tree stand. I asked him about the antelope tonight on the phone and he said he just got plain old lucky when he stalked up on them and arrowed one a little under 20 yards. No water holes or blinds were Involved In these hunts. He has hunted over water holes for lopes before but didn't have much luck being they were so skittish. Seeing lopes wasn't a problem, getting drawed back on them was a whole new ball game In the water holes. He told me they were way more on the ball when at the water holes In his experiences. My dad hunted antelope 2 different years and didn't care for It much and hasn't done It for I'm guessing 20+ years. I know It's something I wanna try. Dad also told me tonight your giving him way too much credit calling him a woodsman. He said we all need some luck too. :p I gotta be up In 4.5 hours to haul milk bud, have a good weekend Will!!
Lol...yet another variable, "luck". Thanks Steve! Amigo, It would be a great pleasure to take you (Jeff too) on an antelope hunt. Let's do it some year.
I don't understand why some of you guys get so bent out of shape over this debate. I see nothing wrong with him shooting a 400 grain arrow for over 60# of KE... That is plenty of energy. If he wants to shoot 20fps faster, no harm... No foul. Go for it. I am currently shooting 375 grain arrows out of a 60# bow.... I have not hunted with an arrow over 420 grains in probably 10 years... I have only ever lost one deer, it was due to a deflection off of a branch and I hit him above the spine... Just a pretty nasty flesh wound. Someone want to tell me that I am wrong for shooting and recovering every deer I ever shot at but the one I skimmed with "light" arrows? Edit to add... I have never not had a pass through on any deer I have ever shot either..
