Here's the thread link http://forums.bowhunting.com/showthread.php?t=14305 For the record I was just messing around
Gospel. As a biologist with a pretty good background in physics I can tell you that reaction times in the nerve synapses of prey animals will far exceed how fast we can get arrows to travel no matter how far we advance the technology. If you're counting on speed to get your arrow to the target before it "reacts" then you better hope that A. it has the wrong reaction, or B. that the reaction is to stand there and do nothing. Your efforts are better put toward making sure the critter doesn't react by making a quieter setup, being better concealed or picking your shot opportunities for when the critter is relaxed. Then again, you could just start shooting at bigger, slower critters that just don't care to move like predators, buffalo or moose. Then you're really going to want the momentum over the speed...
I hear what you're saying Rob, but I want you to define "quieter". Animals like yotes/bobcats can hear a mere sqeak from a half a mile away. What can be done to make a bow completely silent? If sound travels at a constant speed (any sound) and we are trying to over come this disadvantage, then wouldn't it be better to project our arrows faster-even if it's micro seconds? All things considered? Animals like warthog are never relaxed- to relax would mean certain death in the hostile environment in which they live. Lacing the waterholes with Ambien isn't considered fair chase, and thus not an option. I'm not sure what could be done to overcome constantly tense critter such as these. The bloody thing rest (not sleep)underground, facing forward, and always have at least one eye open. I agree, concealment is critcal. As smart hunters/predators we can take advantage greatly in this arena-if we apply ourselves. I 'm not sure there's one simple magic answer to the question...too many variables. Experience (tuning our instincts/reflexs) and the process of trial and error, universally, is the path for a better understanding. Wouldn't you agree?
I think it mostly all depends on what type of hunting you are doing. If I were only hunting deer from a stand where a 30yrd shot would be my max I would be shooting a 500+gr arrow. Unless your bow shoots approx. 1,100 feet per second you can't beat a deer's reaction. Out west where longer shots, up to 50 yrds, are often present I prefer a somewhat lighter arrow for yardage estimation purposes. My current set-up is right at 400grns. I'll be the first to admit that a heavier arrow may out perform my current arrow as far as penetration goes. However, my 400gr. arrow still won't have a problem on larger game, like elk. I'll take the flatter trajectory. My bow really like's these arrows and i'm still shooting 284fps and making 71.6lbs/KE, which is plenty. Biggest thing to remember though, KE doesn't equal penetration.
I've always been on the bandwagon of heavier set ups vs the lighter set ups. 2 years ago I really had my eye's opened and was reassured why I think the way I do. We were all out stump shooting (recurvers and compounds). Many times we'd take 50 to 70 yard shots at stuff for the heck of It, It was fun. The guys shooting compounds (300 fps) with their light set ups (400 grains) really lost arrow speed somewhere In that 40 to 50 yard range. By the time their arrows hit that 60 yard mark they were dead to the world compared to what they were when they were 1st shot. My arrows lost velocity too but It was easy to see It wasn't nearly as much as the lighter set ups. Same as the guys who were shooting lighter set ups with their recurves lost much more arrow speed then I did with my at the time 580 grain 2216 fence posts.
I'll take the heavier arrow over the speed. I'm sure you guys are correct about the speed of a deer's reflexes as opposed to the speed of our arrows, but out of the 12 deer that I've killed in my three years of bow hunting, not one has shown any indication that something was wrong until the broadhead made contact. I'm no expert, but I know that there are two reasons for this: 1. None of those deer had any idea I was there. As a result, they were not looking in my direction and were totally relaxed. 2. I shoot a 500 grain arrow which makes my shot very quiet. My personal opinion (just my opinion - no facts to back it up) is that most "string jumps" occur with deer that are on full alert or even looking at the hunter when the shot is taken. I am convinced that if the deer is on alert and looking at you when you're ready to shoot you are no longer trying to beat the speed of sound coupled with the deers reflexes - you are now trying to beat the speed of light along with it's reflexes. It'll see the release and react instantly.
Cheif, Have you ever shot a lighter arrow for comparision purposes? Would the deer in your case react the same w/ a lighter faster arrow, or do you think the 500 grainer is the complete and only package? If an inch is a mile, then surely a micro second is a lifetime...a grain is a ton. One thing for sure, dead is dead, and you have to hit them to make em dead! I agree 100% with your last statement. Steve, stumps don't move....if they did, I wouldn't be the great tree shooter that I am. How deep is deep enough?
To Kill it The questuion is , for what your are hunting what is the setup that best fits you're needs and gives the best chance at killing the animal.
My first year I was hunting with a 400 grain arrow moving at 299.5 fps. I took three deer with my bow that first year and the results were the same, so to answer your question I'd have to say that the deer in my case would react the same and no, I don't think that my 500 grain configuration is the complete and only package. I just know that I've found what I consider to be an ideal balance between fast enough (270 fps), lack of noise on the shot and plenty of punch to drive my arrows through the deer and into the ground. This setup has performed flawlessly for me, but I'll admit that there could be situations where it might not be an ideal setup. It's just best for me. The main point I was trying to make is that whether someone's arrow is moving fast or slow, the best way to avoid havng a deer "jump the string" is to set yourself up so that they have no idea you're there until they feel the broadhead make contact. The quiet factor is, in my opinion, a BIG bonus. I do know that my bow made quite a bit more noise on the shot with 400 grain arrows, but at 20-25 yards on an unsuspecting critter, it really doesn't make much of a difference in my limited experience.
I'm not sure if this was meant to be a joke, but there is no way you could compare the speed of light to anything on this world... FYI that is 186,000 miles per second.
Depends on the severity of the errors involved in the universal learning process (miss vs. wound, dunking vs. drowning...). I just don't want someone thinking that flinging arrows faster is the solution to killing jumpy critters. We both know there's more to it but not everyone does. Another point to consider that is often overlooked is that it is sometimes better to be a little farther away from the critter you're shooting especially if it's something as jumpy as a warthog. While they'll hear and react to a shot inside 20 yards, they may not even hear that same shot at 40 yards. There's a balance there though as with everything; how far is too far and how close is it that it just doesn't matter anymore if they react because they can't move far enough to get their vitals clear of the arrow anyway? It's situational and we can only use our experience to guide us as to what is best in each of our own situations we think we're most likely to be in.
It's a wonder that long bows and recurves ever kill anything with their slow, heavy arrows and non-flat trrajectories.
No, it wasn't meant as a joke. What I meant was pretty much what I said. If a deer is looking at you when you shoot, it will see the release and react instantly as opposed to hearing the sound of the bow and having to process that auditory stimulus prior to making a decision as to how to react. The key words that link the speed of light to what I said is "the deer will see". I know the speed of light is approximately 186,000 miles per second, and as luck would have it, that's precisely the speed at which a visual image (reflected light) will travel from it's source to the retinas of a deer that's staring you down.
No they don't Will but that's not the point I was making. These light arrows out of these "speedy compounds" didn't Impress me In the least with all the energy they lost at longer distances. That's all I was saying.
Kinetic Energy is figured using this formula: SpeedxSpeedxWeight/450,240= KE So for instance: 400gr arrows at 280fps 285x285x400=32,490,000/450240=72.16lbs/KE
