BINGO! Fitz and Muzzy- I like reading the comments you two post on here. I hope others take to heart what you are talking about. I know I have.
Serious question fom me finally. I think it was hinted at before. Why does it seem that so many religious folks don't accept that a person can be happy, live a good life, be a kind, generous person yet not believe in Christ or be a religious person in any way? It seems that even though someone is a really good person, they are never seen as they should be by religous people, if they themselves are not religious. And I'll add that I don't understand religious people feeling sorry for those who aren't?
BINGO! rybo - I like reading the comments you post on here. I hope others take to heart what you are talking about. I know I have.
I think ANYONE can be happy it they live like you said ... my belief is that those actions are all spoke about in the Bible, so saved or not .... it works ... it's the eternity portion that is the part of The Bible that divides...
Ryan, I'm not sure exactly. This confuses me too. That's part of what kept me from church. From what I could tell I was just as happy, just as caring, just as kind as any Christian I knew. Maybe even more so than some. But what really got to me, and still does, is the facade many Christians put up. The fact that they messed up like me didn't bother me, it was the pride & shame that often accompanied both the person and the fellow church goers around them that did. Part of it could also be that many people first become Christian at a point in their life when they have been completely broken down, and the church helped. They would then associate their life of pain before Christ and assume others were the same. Bowhunting & Christianity can be looked at similarly. None of us approach it the same way. We all live in different environments that don't allow us to. We have different amounts of time, resources & dedication to give to it. We thoroughly enjoy it and like to share it with others. We are our own worst enemies. You can try and try and try and still not be successful, but tomorrow is another day and it can all change in an instant. Now if we could just realize that we are not all the same. We don't have to do it the same. You wouldn't stick a 12 yo kid 35ft up a stand and make him sit there 12 hrs a day his first year hunting. The best way we can represent ourselves is to do our best, own up to our mistakes, enjoy what is given to us and share that with others.
You're a good man Mike.....now if only more people thought like you. The problem outsiders have is those "in the circle" believe there is only one way.....and that's the ONLY right way.
Great question. First, let's get rid of the religious folks stigma. Read Fitz's well thought out and very honest posts and I think you'll see that is what he is driving at. It's not religion we are talking about. Bowhunting, football, knowledge, science and a long list of other things can be one's religion. Certainly, one may find a degree of happiness, personal fulfillment in any of these other things. Let me give you a quick assignment that I have given the Theology classes I teach; define the word "Good." And you have to do it without referencing God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. You'll probably discover a very slippery definition that few people can agree on. Now when we consider that absolute perfection is the only way "good" can be defined as to leave no room for improvement, then we begin to see that nothing on this planet can ever be truly considered "good" in a way that everyone can agree to. Now, I don't think anyone should be feeling sorry for you because you reject their religion and I apologize for anyone who has communicated that. I have wonderful friends who reject my faith and most of them feel free to be themselves when I'm around, within certain legitimate parameters of course. I also will acknowledge the many abuses that occur in the name of "religion," that's not what Jesus is about and neither should it be what we are about as Christians. But what should be communicated, in my view is that if the tenants of the bible are followed, your "good" can be incredible, even more than you can imagine. I doubt any of us will discover that kind of perfection in our marriages or in any other human activity in this life. But it is a wonderful journey that gives us something "good" to shoot for no matter how far off target we seem to be or get. That's why I keep going bowhunting, even when I fail time and time again. It's a wonderful journey and I know even when I get the buck of a lifetime, there's still a bigger one out there because "good" is never as good as it can be. I have seen great non-christian marriages and I have seen horrible (so-called) Christian marriages. So no one should be judging or feeling sorry for anyone else. But I have never seen a good marriage that wasn't built on solid principles such as mutual submission and effective communication patterns whether or not a couple realized that they were in agreement with what scripture teaches. As far as anyone else's criticism, I learned a simple way of handling it. Listen to it, you never know what you may learn and "That which is true you do, that which is false... you toss." Just for the record there is a misconception of what submission means. It is another mis-application of scripture given by "religious" people. The word actually means to stand under someone else... Like the foundation of a home stands under the house built on it. Only a fool would first destroy the foundation before building a house on it. So if you have a pattern in marriage of holding one another up instead of tearing one another down, you likely are practicing a biblical model of marriage whether you know it or not and whether you ever become Christ followers or not. Thanks for a great question... I hope this helps.
Don't get me wrong, I still think I'm a better bowhunter & Christian that all of you.... I just try not to lead with that
Rybo here is a serious answer to your question. this is how I look at it. If someone believes they are a good person. What is the measure of being a good person? IF and I say IF there is a God he has a set of standards that determine who is good, the Ten Commandments. Let’s look at three of them. The first is thou shalt not lie, we have all broken this one, and what is that person called? A Liar. the second is thou shalt not kill, ok you probably have not killed anyone, but the Bible says that if you hate someone in your heart you have committed murder, that person is called a Murder the third is thou shalt not commit adultery, again hopefully you have not cheated on your wife (assuming you are married), again Jesus said that if you lust after a woman in your heart, you have committed adultery with her, and how hasn’t lusted after a woman (or man). So If you stand before God (again we are saying IF he exists) and you were judged by those standards would you Innocent or Guilty. If you say innocent because God is supposed to forgive I give you this scenario. If you stood before a judge for a crime that you are 100% guilty for, would it be just for the judge to let you go Free? No it would not; it is his duty to make sure the correct punishment is carried out. So you are standing before God and he is judging you by the ten commandments, and if you are guilty of all three you are a lying, adulterous murderer. Remember we went through just three, If you are judged by those standards and God is a Just and Holy God you are going to be found guilty. If you are Found guilty are you going to heaven or hell? Hell because God is a just God and he would have to punish you for breaking his law. Back to the Courtroom you have been found guilty and the judge says you have to pay a fine you cannot pay. But a stranger walks in and says that he will pay the fine for you. The judge would then have to let you go free because the debt is paid, not by anything you have done but by the stranger that did not have to. That is what Christ did for us he paid a debt that we could not and he didn’t have to. You can live a long and fulfilling life without knowing God and His Son. But If you have to stand before him one day we all will have to answer for breaking HIS laws.
Good - something without adverse effects Good life - Living in a manner that does not adversely affect other lives You will see no reference to god, jesus or the holy spirit. It is my definition, I don't need others to agree with it.
I am currently reading a book: Justice: What's the Right Thing to Do? I am about half way through. I HIGHLY recommend it to everyone that has posted in this thread.
