Why are churches so racially segregated?

Thanks for the debate gentlemen. I never went to church when I was younger. I used to read everything I could get my hands on when I was younger, including the Bible. I don't know why I read it, maybe it was because I wanted to fit in with the other kids. I was wholly confused as to what it really meant. I went through periods of time where I believed and where I did not believe. I still do not know. But as crazy as it may sound to some of you, one of the reasons why I have started to believe more and more in the existence of God is because of science. I see all the natural forces, I look at the elegant coordination of the universe, the human body, physics, biology, chemistry, the theories of the universe expanding and contracting, the list goes on. How in the heck does all that happen coming out of nowhere? It doesn't. Something created it. That is the only thing my mind can comprehend when I analyze all of the factors that make up the world around me. Some force created us. If "his" name is GOD, then that is "his" name. If "his" name is 0090233JK14.556KJKLLWoooooo000.900safsdkjnkoaiuandlkjadbnfoiasdjfn then that is "his" name. Who knows.

This post wasn't meant to flame any religion.

 

Funny yall brought up the non-demnominational, that is what my integrated church is. Granted we are still predominantly white, we have taken a big step with the integration. Now personally I believe religion is what ruins people as some of you have said, people get so caught up in Religion, that they dont take part in the relationship with Jesus.
My pastor constantly preaches relationship, we are not about religion at all, its all about your relationship with the Lord. If you want to see him work, or at least notice his works, you have to talk to him on a regular basis, indulge yourself in prayer, worship him like you would if he was right in front of you, tithe for your financial problems, and keep yourself in the word.
Now I have been in the religion side of it, and thoroughly believe that when you are witnessing or preaching to someone, a relationship is something they are looking for far more than a religion and it is easier to relate to people. Thats just the way that I have been taught in the past few years, and now I am actually getting fairly good at talking to people about my religion and have convinced quite a few people to check the word out and explained to them all of the stuff I have seen. I am just glad that I was chosen by God to help spread his word, and I have a very dynamic plan to carry out one day soon that will get people involved with God and the outdoors.

 

Just remember, what might be enough for you, isn't enough for others.

You can see a chair, you can touch a chair. You cannot see or touch God. We can't sit down and have a beer with Jesus. But you have faith that both exist, and thats fine for you. It may not be fine for others. Unless you can open a door and show someone the stairs to hell, they need more proof.

Don't confuse faith with proof.

If you really want to convince nonbelievers to believe in the existence of God, you have to be willing to accept the reasons they don't believe. You don't have to believe in those reasons, but you have to be able to accept them. The minute you try to tell them something exist without proof, it becomes more difficult. Many people need to see to believe. You can tell me there are 4.5 yo bucks running around the properties I hunt all you want, but until I see one, its difficult for me to believe they exist. If you really want to show someone why you think God exist, you have to show them. Words only go so far. Just remember, the reasons you feel are proof God exist are subjective. They won't always "see" what you "see".

 

I agree with everything you've said in this thread so far...

...but I've met some pretty militant atheists in my days, and I find them just as annoying as the "in your face" Christians.

 

Absolutely. I made a comment earlier in this thread about there being extremes on both sides.

 

Thank you for posting Vito, I truly appreciate it when someone makes me think about what I believe. I don't always like it, but I appreciate it and I think it is important not to have blind faith. I truly believe that not all the evidence for God is subjective, but it does take work for someone to look into it for themselves. The prophecy in the Bible is just one of those.

I also 100% agree that "words only go so far", this is so very true.

 

This is a great conversation, and it brings to light, for me, what is one of the main stumbling blocks for both believers and non-believers ( <--- even this phrase I don't like) - See for two many people religion is a choice, a step, or a line you cross. That leads to so many of our human issues. Jesus is about Relationships.

There is no line. There's no red or blue pill that you choose. There is no single action you can take. Nothing. That's the whole point! I'm broken. Your broken and certainly the Joneses are broken. Priests are broken, Budists, mailmen, teachers, politicians.... all of humanity. Try for a whole day not to sin. I can make it about 5 minutes, maybe.

That's why I "Follow Christ". There's an inherent action involved. Jesus was (obviously) the best example of how we are to live. But it's impossible. No way, no how. Jesus represents an unatainable place that we are draw to. The important part is the direction we are heading, not where we are!

That's why Christ based support groups (AA, MN Teen Challenge) are so powerful. It's easiest for those that have nothing, the borken, the helpless, the addicted, to find Christ. Imagine Jesus at the North pole. If you are at the south pole, any diection you head is north. Even if you if your bearings are off 5 miles E or West, you are still headed in the rigth basic direction.

Now, for arguments sake, say Jesus is in your home town. 5 miles off can make a huge difference if you are trying to find him.

The point is not where you are, it's where you're heading. You'll never get there, but keep trying. That's what repenting is all about. It was a military term like about face. To repent is to aknowlege that you need Christ in you life, then about face, turning to him, and walk. Step by step, choice by choice.

Jesus's harshest words were for the "religious" leaders of the time. He saw all the actions that they were doing, but with empty hearts. This is an easy trap to fall into.

To many people stop. They believe, or become "born again" and that's where they stand. Motionless. Or worse, Stand motionless and condemn others. These are the Sunday Christians I was refering to in my previous post. Attendence. Check. Tithe. Check. Looking good for othes, check?

I love Gandhi's quote, "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." It hurts but rings of Truth.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think denominations are wrong or evil. Quite the contrary. There are people Catholics can reach that no one else can. Same with Baptists, Lutherns, Pentacostals, etc, etc. I can reach people you can't, you can reach people I can't. And here's something interesting. There were people that Jesus himself didn't reach. His hometownsmen for one. Even his half-brother didn't believe until after he died. Whew, that takes some of the pressure off.

So where do you stand? Or rather, what direction are you heading? Help eachother. If life has taken you down a difficult or scary path, then by God you can help others that are going through the same path. Help eachother (not eachother 'Christians', eachother Humans!). If you can reflect even the smallest part of Christ, people will notice it and opportunities to share, not preach, you faith will follow.

A word of caution. Today we are bombarded with advertising, political ads, marketing gimics and yes Snuggies. People today have BS radars that are highly tuned. If you share Christ, be honest and sincere. If someone at church asks "how's it going?' don't put on a fake mask. In being your honest true self, you'll make a huge difference in others lives and in your life!

This conversation is wonderful to have here and I thank you all for being so respectful. But it is truely hard to convey one's beliefs on the internet, on paper, or even over the phone. I'm sure much of what I'd like to be saying gets lost from my head to this thread. Christ calls us into relationship with himself and others. Sorry, he doesn't call us into the woods to be by ourselves eternally :D So I would hope that we can all have this kind of open conversation with someone (not everyone 'thumpers') directly in our lives. Honest, open, respectful. Face to face. Relationships.

Love God. Love People. Period.

 

don't confuse church with religion yo!!!

imho, churches tend to be the problem not so much the belief structure... I've seen churches tear families apart because the husband or wife made the church the priority instead of their faith... when you start skipping out on your parental/marital responsibilities because of church you are asking for trouble... faith can bring a family together, but church can tear it apart... I've witnessed it first hand...

 

One more point I want to touch on. I've had this conversation before, and a lot of the posts here reminded me of it. There sure is a lot of doom and gloom about the human race. We are sinners, we are broken, we don't deserve, we are nothing...c'mon guys, the human race is pretty damn cool.

I had someone recently try to paint the human race as this group of awful people, and we all need God to fix us. I always disliked when people tried to use fear to make people into "believers".

I have faith in the human race, as a whole.

 

excellent point vito, like you I tend to think that a few bad apples don't spoil the bunch... by and large the human race is decent... just a few glaring and newsmaking examples of the worst of us... very little notoriety for the rest of the decent folk

 

Here is some food for thought:

No issue has a greater influence on determining your social and political views than whether you view human nature as basically good or not.

In 20 years as a radio talk show host, I have dialogued with thousands of people, of both sexes and from virtually every religious, ethnic and national background. Very early on, I realized that perhaps the major reason for political and other disagreements I had with callers was that they believed people are basically good, and I did not. I believe that we are born with tendencies toward both good and evil. Yes, babies are born innocent, but not good.

Why is this issue so important?

First, if you believe people are born good, you will attribute evil to forces outside the individual. That is why, for example, our secular humanistic culture so often attributes evil to poverty. Washington Senator Patty Murray, former President Jimmy Carter, and millions of other Westerners believe that the cause of Islamic terror is poverty. They really believe that people who strap bombs to their bodies to blow up families in pizzerias in Israel, plant bombs at a nightclub in Bali, slit stewardesses' throats, and ram airplanes filled with innocent Americans into office buildings do so because they lack sufficient incomes.

Something in these people cannot accept the fact that many people have evil values and choose evil for reasons having nothing to do with their economic situation. The Carters and Murrays of the West — representatives of that huge group of naive Westerners identified by the once proud title "liberal" — do not understand that no amount of money will dissuade those who believe that God wants them to rule the world and murder all those they deem infidels.

Second, if you believe people are born good, you will not stress character development when you raise children. You will have schools teach young people how to use condoms, how to avoid first and secondhand tobacco smoke, how to recycle and how to prevent rainforests from disappearing. You will teach them how to struggle against the evils of society — its sexism, its racism, its classism and its homophobia. But you will not teach them that the primary struggle they have to wage to make a better world is against their own nature.

I attended Jewish religious schools (yeshivas) until the age of 18, and aside from being taught that moral rules come from God rather than from personal or world opinion, this was the greatest difference between my education and those who attended public and private secular schools. They learned that their greatest struggles were with society, and I learned that the greatest struggle was with me, and my natural inclinations to laziness, insatiable appetites, and self-centeredness.

Third, if you believe that people are basically good, God and religion are morally unnecessary, even harmful. Why would basically good people need a God or religion to provide moral standards? Therefore, the crowd that believes in innate human goodness tends to either be secular or to reduce God and religion to social workers, providers of compassion rather than of moral standards and moral judgments.

Fourth, if you believe people are basically good, you, of course, believe that you are good -- and therefore those who disagree with you must be bad, not merely wrong. You also believe that the more power that you and those you agree with have, the better the society will be. That is why such people are so committed to powerful government and to powerful judges. On the other hand, those of us who believe that people are not basically good do not want power concentrated in any one group, and are therefore profoundly suspicious of big government, big labor, big corporations, and even big religious institutions. As Lord Acton said long ago, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton did not believe people are basically good.

No great body of wisdom, East or West, ever posited that people were basically good. This naive and dangerous notion originated in modern secular Western thought, probably with Jean Jacques Rousseau, the Frenchman who gave us the notion of pre-modern man as a noble savage.

He was half right. Savage, yes, noble, no.

If the West does not soon reject Rousseau and humanism and begin to recognize evil, judge it and confront it, it will find itself incapable of fighting savages who are not noble.

» Published: February 17, 2005 (Original: December 31, 2002) | Written by Dennis Prager

 

People as a whole are decent on the outside but what is the motivation? If it is selfish motivation then it is still sin. If we are helping the poor and hungry and doing to say "look at me look at what I did for these people" The bible calls that sin. As Christians we are suppose to give all the glory to God not because he will strike us down if we don't (He wont) but because we want to do so because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. "The bible says no one is good no not one" Because we are born that way. And because of that "works based" religion doesn't work. Now I'm not saying that every good deed comes from selfish motivation but that is what our hearts want to do because of our nature.

 

Ok ... here we go

one of the biggest problems people have in general are generalizations. ALL churches aren't like you said ....most are because, like others have said, that's where people are comfortable ...and to each their own.

Not sure what you mean when you say you are not born-again. Jesus stated in HIS Word that you must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. It may be logistics for you, I don't know. But ALL true followers that have put their trust in Christ ALONE to get them to Heaven are Christians.

Jesus said that in the day of judgment, Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Now those are The Words of God as stated in The Bible ... not my words. EVERYTHING else that people believe is SUBJECTIVE. Am I bad for stating that I believe that?

AMEN! along with what Christine said .... POWER ... it all goes hand in hand ... it NEVER was about true Christianity ... NEVER.

Preach on, PREACHER!!! great stuff!!!!!

AMEN!


Guys ... I 100% agree that there is a difference with pushing and sharing ... those that push are wrong. There are men that preach on the street .... free speech ..not pushing. IMO ... those that hand out Gospel tracts at events ... you dont have to take one .. not pushing IMO.

Also, a true Christian understands that there is no person better than another ... and you can sure tell the ones that feel they are ... we got a few on here

I know "christians" that believe for me to be friends with you all that arent as they are would and I am sure do, label me a compromiser.... but whatevs

this goes directly against the Bible, Bro ..... I choose to believe God's Word ... and I won't judge you for that belief ... but if the Bible is right, and I am staking my eternity on it, then that is the same type stuff the serpent whispered into Eve's ear in the Garden of Eden


I love you guys .... all of you. My prayer, because of my belief, is that you will ALL read God's Word and ask HIM for HIS truth ... not mine, not anyone else's ... and not YOURS,,,,God loves you all and He wants you to know HIS truth

May the Grace of God be with you all

 

My 78 Jeep CJ 7 is pretty damn cool. It's broken though. Not bad. Broken. It works, mostly, and a blast to drive, but there are thousands of things that could be better on it. A drivers seatbelt that's not rusted out from the pan. A tub that had all its mounts. Differentials & an oil pan that didn't leak fuel.

After my re-build it'll be better, but it could still.... get better gas mileage, ride smoother, go faster, float, fly, have no emissions, do taxes, grill burgers, plant trees.....

Broken to me is not "bad" or full of doom and gloom. I think I'm a pretty good guy (back to that Pride problem I have). But man, there are things I've done that I regret or that I'm ashamed of. Hurtful words, spend $ on selfish things, money that could have made a real difference in someone's life. Talked behind some's back. Lied. Cheated..... Some of these sins seem minor, others were far from that. God would have me commit no sin. If I let Him have His way in my life, I would be far better than I am today.

That the challenge of it all. You sin's are forgiven. Go and sin no more. Sin. All sin. I still get confused by it all, but I'm learning to trust it.

So for me it's not Doom and Gloom, but me and a much better me (still broken though )

 

Amen and Ditto to that!! Please see for yourself what we are talking about don't just listen to us imperfect sinners listen to the Perfect Savior of sinners!! Its all in the bible!!

 

The bible says we are not good. Isn't that a little harsh? Maybe judgemental?

For the record, I think you're good Tony....no matter what the bible says.

 

nevermind

 

I've read the bible, and had to spent many years studying it. You just have to understand some words in a book is not enough to convince people something exist. Its subjective, and some people view things differently...and thats okay. I think thats part of what makes the human race great.

Just want to say thanks to everyone for keeping this conversation civil. Faith, religious beliefs, etc, does not and would not change my opinion of anyone here.





I already think you are all losers.

 

What do you mean nevermind? That was a great question. One that I myself don't have an answer for, but was on the edge of my seat hoping for some wisdom from someone.

 

It means try again later :D

I was born and raised Catholic. By the time I was in Jr. High I wasn't going to church. I was essentially an Atheist by the end of HS and into college. But though it all I would periodically get the urge to 'try' and read the bible. (Funny thing is, I would usually get this urge shortly after deer season, 9 day's of sitting in the stand alone, quiet in my thoughts. I'd even playfully pray. You know, "God if you're real, make that buck step out in the open and I'll believe." ) I could never make it much more that 9 or 10 chapters into Genesis before I gave up. I could make it much further in the New Testament, but not much further.

God bless my wife. She was my girlfriend at the time, and in order to play nice with her folks I'd go to Church with them. Besides, they were Christians and they seemed "normal" enough. I liked their Preacher because he spoke normally. There was no difference if he was chatting with you or giving his sermon. That made me want to look into it more.

Then we found a wonderful Church in Duluth and the floodgates opened. This started to make sense, I could read the bible, and some verses that I had previously read dozens of times, would suddenly make sense. I still don't understand much of it. Never will I suspect. But I know enough that it's changed my life forever.

Sorry for being so long-winded, but the short "read it again" answer flies in the face of my views of introducing people to Jesus.