True....and every hunter sets this, for himself. IMO, I just find it poor form when people try to set it for others. In the video, he's doing nothing illegal. Now....I know someone's thinking, "it doesn't have to be illegal - to be unethical". You are correct. But, that's not pertinent, here. Like I said (And Bruce said the same thing)....the hunter needs to be 100% sure in his mind that he can execute the shot. If he is..........no issues. Again.....no shot, for me.
Hmm, I wasn't sure how to take this...I felt slightly disrespected even though I am sure none was intended. One of the reasons I did some research on line and joined this great group of hunters was to get plugged into the extensive amounts of knowledge available through other peoples experiences. I have been hunting for years with some success and, although I am new to archery hunting, I have the basics. And although I am sure I would learn something new and valuable from a archery ed class, I would put a lot of money down that I can learn more by asking a few questions on this forum. so lets keep the great discussions going guys!
I know I am going to get a lot of crap for this. But a front quartering shot with today's equipment is really not a bad shot. You have to remember to look past your arrow placement and picture its EXIT point. If it penetrated the scapula then it most likely punctured the heart. But by what we see in the video for a second it really looks like he made a very BAD call. So ask yourself this a 220" typical buck facing you with a shot only between the shoulder and sternum at 20 yards would you take it?
Every hunter SHOULD set this for himself but that is not always the case. And that is where game laws come into effect. Game laws aren't always about population management but also ways and means of taking game. For instance here in Texas a .22 is not legal for deer hunting. Why? Its an ineffective and quite possibly unethical means of harvest. You could kill a deer with a .22, many have. It is a weapon of choice for poachers in east Texas. But its all about the odds. Its a low percentage weapon. When a hunter WON"T set a moral and ethical standard for himself its up to the regulatory powers that be to set that standard. Who am I to judge? I am someone with something at stake. I don't want to lose my PRIVELEDGE to hunt. Therefore I will speak up and judge another man when I see an unethical and immoral act. Even if its just in my opinion.
The angle that elk is standing he is definitely going to encounter bone and muscle even if we assume he hit where he was aiming(left of leg). By your estimate he's losing 15-20% of his energy on an already big, muscular animal at a less than ideal angle. All of this seems even more likely when we see the lack of penetration of his arrow. Admittedly the elk did not seem to jump or move at the shot but I still consider it less than ideal if the animal is looking right at me. Any guesses on the distance based on the arrow trajectory, time of travel? Looks farther than 20 yards to me. Slow it down and look at the point of impact I'm definitely not convinced the shoulder doesn't come into play on that shot, even still he's hitting bone(shoulder, leg, brisket, something). Glad it worked out for him but IMO I'm still not taking that shot.
Will (Huck) and Greg (TX), you guys rock!!! I couldn't agree more with EVERYTHING you both said. Thanks for the great post's guys!!
Don't mess around with poor shots period, let alone on an elk, they are tough son-of-a -guns and can survive more infliction than most people will give them credit for. The best shot on an elk is one with a great enterance point thru both lungs or the heart..and a big ole exit hole to bleed them out fast. They will run on pure adrenaline for a min of a 100 yards even with the best shots..they have so much blood in them to pump out... I read a study one time that proved that elk could remanufacture blood faster than any other ungulate. People wonder why I care so much about big KE and blowing through a critter, over kill if you will on a deer.. its because I hunt elk and bear the same time I hunt whitetails.. I prefer to shoot the max lbs. that I am comfy with. I want two holes! dangit! LOL peace brothers.. I am itching to kill something.. t-4 days!
Greg....I respect your opinion (a great deal) on many levels. Good stuff. I eluded to the legality of what the hunter was doing for a reason. The longer I hunt, the closer to using "is it legal" becomes MY barometer (when discussing what another hunter is doing). Right or wrong, it's just the truth. We (as a community) often cite the public's perception of us as a reason to police our own. I agree with this fear, to an extent. But, even more dangerous (IMO) is discourse amongst ourselves. Hunter on hunter, if you will. We see this phenomenon rear its' ugly head on such topics as: HFH; long dist. shots; guided hunts; etc..., etc..., etc... . I also wanted to thank everyone for keeping this discussion on track and EXTREMELY civil. Refreshing.
Guys, Interesting responses here for sure. I am the hunter who took the quartering frontal shot on the bull. I'm not here to defend my decision, I've hunted elk for 23 years and have taken that shot 3 times, all with the same result. Dead elk in less than 60 yards every time. I have personally seen it used on 5-6 other elk and have never seen one make it farther than 80 yards. Considering I have double lunged bulls that have made it over a mile, I do consider the frontal shot a very lethal shot. Help me understand something if you will...everyone comments that the "hole" that you have to shoot through on a frontal shot is the size of a canteloupe. I am completely confident at hitting a canteloupe out to 50 yards, without question (I would not take a 50 yard frontal shot, ever, though). However, how big is the "hole" you have to hit on a broadside shot? An inch and a half? I'm assuming you're talking about the area where you won't hit ribs? The ribs on a broadside shot are 3X as big as the ribs on the frontal shot, and simple knowledge of the elks anatomy will show that you have less bone to penetrate on a frontal shot than a perfect broadside shot. You obviosult want to avoid the shoulder/leg bone, but you need to avoid that same bone on a broadside shot. Knowing where it is and where you need to hit to avoid it is critical on any shot angle. Additionally, almost every major artery and vein that go to an elks heart run through that frontal area (see the diagram of the circulatory system posted earlier). Rather than hitting a lung and waiting for the bull to suffocate on his own blood with a broadside or quartering away shot (not a good shot in my book), why not hit every major artery in the elks cavity as well as a lung and possibly the heart, and get it over fast without a long tracking job? That is the goal in archery hunting...inflict as much blood loss as possible to cause a quick death. I've attached a picture of an ungulates anatomy to help illustrate the opportunity. On the whitetail, the opening you need to hit is probably around the size of a canteloupe. On an elk, it's at least watermelon sized or larger. An arrow will easily penetrate through the small ribs on the front of the rib cage. In no way am I hoping to persuade anyone to take this shot if they aren't comfortable with it. I'm simply pointing out that it is not the "evil" shot everyone makes it out to be. A little education on an elk's anatomy will show that it is a valid option and the risk with the shot is no greater than the risk with any other shot. As far as the question about whether I was confident with the shot or not? Absolutely. I wouldn't have considered taking it if I wasn't. The arrow penetrated to within about 4 inches of the vanes...when the bull whirled the arrow pushed back out, but the damage was done. Bottom line...don't take a 20 yard broadside shot if you aren't comfortable and confident. Don't take a 30 yard frontal shot if you aren't comfortable and confident. Set limits and stay within those boundaries. I have my limitations and thus far I have been blessed greatly by staying within them. Many thanks, Corey Jacobsen Elk101.com
It's hard to say with the camera angle. If the animal is facing directly at me, the arrow is heading his way. Jeff, I agree with you. If someone has the ability to make a shot like that comfortably then all the power to them, it's not my place to police them. As long as it stays in my ethical boundries I will never speak ill of someone. Hell, given a slight quartering too shot with the front leg back I would be tempted..and probably shoot. Corey, thank you for coming on here and clearing the air. I appreciate that.
Actually, it looks like the shot got in where it needed to be, but again, I'd rather have a little closer and a little better angle if I were to do it. Look again at the anatomy, the should is WAY above where that arrow goes in,, and read what Cory says below, which I alluded to previously, the MAJOR arteries are all right there for he taking, a good sharp BROADHEAD and that's a DEAD animal. Corey, Well put, thanks for the clarification. While I agree with a lot of this, the lungs are so extremely vascular, and if you hit both lungs, you also have a GOOD shot. But the point regarding the vessels is spot on, and something that made me realize that the shot would be a shot I'd WOULD consider were it to present to me. A guy named Moore in Montana has killed over 50 BULL ELK WITH a BOW, and taught me a little about it.
Wow, look at all those major arteries! What was I thinking? I can surely kill elk by arrowing them above the knee (saw my sister do it once). Why mess with all that thick skin, those heavy muscles, and all those deflecting ribs? Yeah, that's it. I'll start shooting them in the knees.... Maybe I'll start passing out condoms to teenagers too-ya know, when archery hunting is banned like it is in England! That'll surely stop teenage pregnancies. Never mind teaching personal restraint to avoid potential disaster-on many levels. Who am I to tell little boys to wait for the proper time and place(ment). Oh that's right, I'm the guy paying the price for someone else's stupidity. But wait! "He" had all the confidence in the world when going for a poke at that moving target! I'll be your huckleberry....BS! Corey, I cannot help but think you're inflicted with a bad case of "Victory Disease". If you're going to attempt less than perfect (by society's standards), then do us all a favor. Keep it out of the public eye! Perception is everything. This will be a tough one to argue when you comprehend the four pages and all the NOs this thread has clearly given you. Doug, I've killed thirty five and I'm still not taking that shot! I have two main reasons: 1) an elk's ribs are designed to protect and deflect things (even heavy things), and 2) elk move-fast. I have had the luxury of seeing elk shot frontally too. I've come across three while hunting-all living with arrows protruding. Is it wrong of me to assume these arrows came from anything but uncaring hunters? I've never seen one up and walking with an arrow sticking out of his broadside ribs-just saying. Hit an elk broadside and the arrow can only do two things: move forward and/or stop. All game laws (draw weight requirements) are established to ensure arrows will penetrate perpendicularly through an elk's rib cage. Thus, a legal arrow isn't going to stop on a rib. It may deflect, but if it does, it's still into a lung and that vascular region you speak of. Why risk something less than perfect? Again, isn't it better to live to hunt another day? Doesn't the prey we pursue deserve that much from us? Matt, the gutless way is the only way to go...next to having Waid do everything for you! Anyone care to discuss, "Things I've learned from this thread"?
Lol! Bring a lawn chair and a cooler. It'll take me a while. Ya know, I almost forgot to get the tenderloins out of mine last year.
As much as I enjoy reading everyones opinions, I'll still stick with the IBEP and my own feelings in regards to frontal shots. If you've ever tried to trail a decent sized whitetail through a Southeast VA swamp/marsh then you will fully understand my preference for broadside / quartering away shots. http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dundee pic/elkshotplacement.pdf
New, I like the way you think! However, the fact of the matter is, humans are easily persauded. Sadly, the seed has now been planted. I can see the gears moving, "If Corey Jacobsen can do it, then so can I...I'm confident." The reality, 2 out of 10 attempts will be successful. We're now going to have a rash of elk walking around wounded. I'll use the follow as my case and point. At the beginning of my last bow hunter ed course (it was a one day-"10 hour accelerated"-class open to hunters aready in possession of a hunter ed certification. Some where archery newbies, but most were seasoned veterans), I handed everyone a slip of paper and asked them to list their "effective range". I stated, "you will be tested on a range at the end of this class." Naturally, people asked, "what do you mean by effective range?" I would explain, "it's that distance from which you can effectively shoot your bow with100% accuracy, under all conditions, into a nine inch diameter target." Come time for the test, the results were amazing! You see, I have the students use their own bow/arrows and shoot a broadhead (they bring) at their stated range. The target is a 1/4 inch steel bighorn silhouette with a nine inch circle cut in the "kill zone". We call him "Elsie". Of the 22 students who participated six walked away with undamaged arrows. The stated ranges varied from 15 to 25 yards. Less than a third did what they said they could do... I've never had more than 40% successfully punch the target. Keep in mind, these are confident archers!
