You won't know unless you try with a 110% commitment. 6 of my 10 largest deer where shot in year 1 on new properties that hadn't been hunted in 5 plus years. "That's all I have to say about that"
How come you don't plant corn? Just this year or every year? Something to consider. You say your area is over run with does so the bucks don't have to travel far to breed. Sure you get pics before season and a few maybe during season of large bucks but rarely see them while hunting. My thought is this. The few large 4.5 + year olds once pressure is applied hide out in thick areas near corn. They want to eat like any other deer but are smart enough not to walk out into a patch of clover during daylight unlike the does and small bucks you routinely see. I would plant corn and set up between corn and thick sanctuary area (maybe make a pond there also so they really have it all in one location) and just maybe they might feel safe enough to go out to eat before sunset if they think they are hidden in the corn. Also if you do plant corn plant non GMO corn. Supposedly there are studies showing deer prefer it and will travel to eat it over GMO corn. People think it has something to do with the sugars in it. Weeds in the corn is thought to help with cover security also. Deer Hunting Tips, Fishing Tips, Gun Reviews and More | Outdoor Life has a little blog about it right now on their homepage. I also like the idea someone mentioned about hiring a deer specialist to give you some input.
great post, its hard to let a deer like that walk in mass because the number of hunters versus the amount of land. The chances are it will be harvested.
I've always preferred to do things the smart way vs the hard way. In other words I don't have to touch a hot stove to know it will burn me. Not trying to single you out as I appreciate anyone and everyone who has chimed in here but your comment is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that I am trying to avoid. Not in a negative way towards you but more towards the type of general blanket statement that gets tossed around camps and forums and magazines without any real factual application to the real world. I'm more interested in the WHY behind statements like that. If it can be explained to me logically and factually then I'm on board 100%. 12 pages have gone by with not a single person offering me anything other then anecdotal evidence of bucks they encountered more then once. I'm not being disrespectful as I said I appreciate everyone's input but I'm still searching for something WAY more tangible then "Just do it 100% man" or Let 'em go so they can grow" or any other cliched nonsense. What I was hoping for was a bunch of guys telling me their first hand experience and what to hopefully expect from our place realistically. Being honest..........I got much more detailed information from the guys (who I respect just as much for their hunting knowledge) stating why they feel as well that passing bucks is a waste of time in the grand scheme of things. I don't mean that in a negative way about passing bucks as we have done it for 6 years now and will never shoot a small buck there in the future..........but thinking passing bucks would somehow lead us to bigger ones more often is where we went wrong. I just haven't seen or heard any evidence yet linking the two.
We don't plant corn because we don't have to. Our neighbor to the south has 180 acres planted every year and our neighbor to the east plants about 50. We like to offer them something different to eat like turnips, radishes, sugar beets, chickory, Buck wheat, and oats. We KNOW they go to the corn so we use that as an advantage by setting up on their travel routes into and out of the corn fields our neighbors plant. We also have some nice high stands near these fields and we watch where the deer enter and record this info with wind direction and then based on the morning winds we have gotten pretty sharp predicting what routes they will take back to the bedding areas based on these factors. Sometimes they have boys chasing them and sometimes they don't. We don't feel like planting corn would benefit us noticeably because 2 lines we have run right up to corn and the neighbors have so much that we couldn't offer more. We have no desire to become farmers. 4-6 acres is plenty of work..........planting 100 acres of corn??? No thanks. Now if the neighbors didn't have it and the bucks were all going to corn that was no where near us then we would have to consider it because they rarely miss a meal in those fields!!
Sounds like you really know what your doing I wish I could help you out more. All I Know is that public land that gets hunted heavily with brown and it's down mentality has few large buck sightings/kills. People who manage and let bucks walk till 4 yrs of age and control the numbers and pressure they put on deer on their land seem to shoot bigger bucks more consistently or so I've read and heard countless times. I don't have any data or concrete facts or personal stories that I know you're looking for but I buy into it, although I have yet to manage my own land. I buy into it because for me it makes sense that more 3 and younger bucks you let walk the more likely some of them will survive for the next year and should have a higher score. The more bucks in your area with a higher score I would think the higher the chance of one messing up and walking by your stand whether it be from aggressive fighting for a territory for doe breeding rights and they get up and battle near your stand, one getting bumped by a fellow hunter walking to his stand and pushed your way or just one getting up during daylight hours cause that hot doe was just chased by a small buck near it's bed and now it's headed down your trail to steal that doe. I know you have heard all that a bunch but that's all I can really contribute and why I at the moment believe in the let em grow scenario.
Quite simply you aren't going to get a lot of detail because historically you are stubborn and it's not worth my time or effort. It's your way or no way. I have seen it time and time again in many of your post. Additionally you have made something that is quite simple overly complicated. If what you are doing isn't working for you then make a change. If you are happy with what you have then keep doing what you have been doing. It seems you have a great deal of concern over variables that are not within your control. This is called fair chase. Short of high fencing your land you have no control over where the deer range and how other hunters hunt. You can only provide them the habitat they need, provide them the nutrition they need, and let them get old. I bet you have never purchased a lotto ticket either right? Sure there is slim to no chance you will win. One thing is for certain though. You can't win if you don't play!
Atlas, my experiences have been nearly the same as yours. My property is much smaller (30 acres) and is largely a funnel of timber with a creek running through the center. I have killed one "big" buck off it in the 10 years I've owned it. I've let a lot of 100-115 inch deer walk, thinking the next season they would be shooters. The problem I've had is, one encounter is usually all I get. I can't say with 100% confidence that I've ever seen the same buck 2 years in a row here. No two properties are the same, and like I said, I'm hunting a much smaller place than you are, but I've decided that letting them "grow" here doesn't work. The deer aren't living on my place, so I just stay prepared for when one happens to walk past.
If deer really prefer NON GMO corn over GMO corn like some say than if I were you I would talk to your neighbor farmer and find out what he's planting. If it's GMO corn I would plant a couple acres of NON GMO corn and see what happens. Could be a fun little experiment. You're not getting the facts you're looking for from others so now it just boils down to improving your land further for big bucks. I understand that's not what was asked in the thread but can't help pointing out ideas when they come to me. If I was you hunting your land I would tell your dad to shoot whatever makes him happy with all the deer you guys have taking 1 small buck a year shouldn't have too much of an impact. You and your bro I would say tag a 120+ every few years to make things fun if the big boys don't start showing up.
Ridiculous statement........you've posted multiple times to a thread you have obviously followed and read for over a week and now you expect anyone to believe you suddenly value your time too much to push a few more keys?? Funny how all the guys who don't agree with you had enough energy to tap the keyboard. We did.......and now I'm evaluating the value of that change and seeking advice from others on whether to continue down that path. Isn't that why we are here?? Absolutely.......You would be foolish not to. The world of hunting does not exist in a vacuum within the borders of your land. You have to ALWAYS be aware of outside forces and how they can potentially effect what you are doing.........if not you will always have to learn your lessons the hard way by living the heartache of potentially preventable chronic mistakes. I agree.........except for the part about getting old. Your perceived input into that equation is minuscule at best in the free range world. Nothing tells me that more then we already pass dozens of small bucks for every 120ish buck we have killed and it hasn't made a single difference over 6 years..........but I'm supposed to believe that passing those 1-2 mid level bucks every year as well will somehow have a dramatic effect?? Again, it sounds good to say but logically and factually it makes no sense. Of course I have..........but there is a MAJOR difference between trying to change your life and family legacy for generations by risking a dollar for a 300 million return on Powerball vs. the dregs of society grinding coins over scratch offs at the local gas station trying to overcome 40 years of bad judgement and poor work ethic. One person understands the potential value and risk vs. reward in major lottery jackpots. The other person just has and lives by the lottery mentality.
I say this with the highest level of empathy. Your situation is EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid. Guys like Heckler and anyone else blindly chanting QDM catch phrases NEVER have an answer for posts like yours. You DID everything they told you to do and yet a DECADE later you have nothing (they said you would) have to show for it. THIS is exactly the problem I have with the logical application of this notion............it's nothing more then a roll of the dice. No one knows what's going to happen are their are no predictiable results. That's what bugs me when I hear guys saying you HAVE to pass up smaller bucks to shoot big ones as I just don't see the two related in any way beyond random coincidence. COULD it help??.....obviously if enough bucks are left alone by enough people in a big enough area it will be noticeable............other then that in the world of free chase no one really knows if it will help or just be a waste of time. I don't have problem with the theory of passing bucks as I/We employ it to varying levels every year. To blindly state that it WILL make a difference and all you have to do is "Let 'em go so they can grow" is nonsense. Way too many quality hunters that I respect for their ability and honesty have reported in this very thread otherwise for any rational person to still believe that. My perspective on the matter is evolving towards seeing and evaluating it for what it TRULY is..............just another in a LONG list of things one can try to incorporate into his hunting bag of tricks........nothing more, nothing less. I/We drank the Kool aid and put too many of our eggs in that basket believing that alone would have an effect on our time in the woods only to find out that effect was wasting it. It's just another link in a loooooooong chain of things that may or may not help in the woods. Just like food plots, mineral sites, proper stand placement, the ability to be on stand at the right time, sitting still and quiet, location, water, terrain, does, neighbors, weather, equipment , etc. I/we will continue to evaluate our thoughts on it leading into spring and I really haven't discussed it with them since Christmas so I don't know where they are at but I find myself leaning towards not rejecting the idea or notion that it could be a useful tactic but more so lessening it's impact/value tremendously and no longer viewing it as a lynch pin or keystone to success but honestly just another thing you can (but don't have to) do and may or may not matter either way. In other words it won't hurt to do but that doesn't mean it will help either.........same as 100 other options we may decide to use.
Here is how I see it --- My opinion is based on managing multiple properties for last 11 years... If you want to kill a big buck (150+) every year then just go buy one at you local high fence shooting gallery.. It's cheaper than trying to grow one on your own place and whole lot less frustrating Other wise roll the dice and hope some of the bucks running your hunting area make it to 5, and have the genetics it takes to grow big horns once they get there. Side note: We have taken only 12 bucks that break the 150 mark during those 11 years, and that is with 15 guys chasing them around. Not a great average is it! Its also why three years ago I decided to shoot every decent three year old buck that I thought was 130 or better that gave me the chance.
i want ant to post a reply to your thread with more data.. But I'm not even sure what to answer any longer. Plus.. I don't think it would be worth my time. do you have specific questions? i like you atlas.. You know this.. I'd love to help you in your decision. Help me.. Help you.
Would it help if the thread filled up with pictures of bucks that were harvested and passed the year before?
Thanks man..........sounds like you guys are in a similar situation as well. Just curious as I'm not sure how extensive your management is. Whatever methods you employ.............what do you consider to be the singular thing that HAS upped your encounters and killing of bigger bucks if anything. Also.........how many of those bucks over 150" do you think you would have killed in the same timeline if you hadn't done any management stuff and just went out and hunted them hard and smart.
"Just curious as I'm not sure how extensive your management is. Whatever methods you employ.............what do you consider to be the singular thing that HAS upped your encounters and killing of bigger bucks if anything." We have plots on most of the properties. Most are not kill plot. We have a 120 minimum on bucks. All bucks taken are 3 years old at least. We have around 3700 acres and 12 farms now... 1. Having enough continuous ground in an area to have the chance to see them. Big bucks in our areas may be 5 miles away on any given day. 2. Being very lucky-- I mean this.. I believe that big bucks make up less than 2% of the herd. Being lucky enough to be in the right spot at the right time is critical and something none of us can control! Lady lucky is a fickle witch! We probably would have killed some of them, but if we took them as 3 years old they would not get to that magic 150 now would they.. Catch 22... and no way of knowing the answer to your what if scenario.
Atlas, I thought you were smarter than this. First, I agree, hunting isn't much more than a roll of the dice, and with everything you've gone through with your property (you didn't miss a trick) you should realize and except this! Secondly, how can you NOT see passing up smaller bucks giving you a better chance at a big buck? It's all about having that tag, not what the buck that you just let walk will turn into. All that matters is that you let a lesser buck go to give you the CHANCE at a big boy.
The small buck you let walk may fill the tag of a neighbor that takes a hunter out of the woods and allows a more mature deer a chance to live another day. And, maybe walk by you.
If that was only true in NY, buck tags are a dime a dozen with everyone having two for themselves and two for their wives.. Ect ect. NY DEC has long fostered the idea that bucks are semi disposable in out population. This illness carried over and is very prevalent in mentally of a large portion of NY deer hunters. If any place can benefit from a one buck a year rule it's NY.
