So this is the biggest buck I have on camera this year. Sadly, we don't grow huge deer up here and the racks are sometimes mangled, as this one is. 4 pts on one side and 2pts on the other side. Deer where I live rarely grow brow tines. Still 5-6 weeks to grow!!!
I'm not putting anyone down or bashing but folks not from northeast NY or Vermont don't understand our struggles. He is a nice deer. Take him if given the chance. I know I would. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
thats a nice buck. It's like that in pa too. But I just saw a batchelor group of 4 bucks about that size or larger and got pumped! Good luck to ya!
I hunt in Vermont as well, still looking to shoot my first buck with a bow. Hoping this is the year! Sent from my iPhone using Bowhunting.com Forums
Not sure how killing an immature deer fixes or helps the struggle. If the majority of 2.5 year olds were passed then in time it's possible to create a different age structure in the herd. In time things could improve if we change our behavior. One thing is certain is that same actions will produce the same results, in our cases poor ones.
It's tough here, really harsh winters with very heavy snow and -20 to -30 is pretty normal January through March. There is no Ag here other then hay fields and corn. I don't think a deer over 155" has been shot in VT in recent years and that's usually only 1 per year, maybe 1-2 140's and 3-4 130's in the entire state. Many 100-120" deer shot and the bulk are under 100". It's just an awful deer State because of the lack of Ag and logging has diminished greatly. But I hear ya, if they can survive.
To accomplish that in VT, the F&W Board would have to go to a minimum 3 antlers per side rather then the current 2 per side. They have been hesitant due to hunter outcry and our deer's bad genetics. The Board is also looking o keep the population down due to the winter die off in bad winters. Sadly, it's just really hard to accomplish here for many reasons. I have indeed gone to an 8pt rule for myself in past years, not had a shot at such a deer, seen the 8pt on camera after the season and then never again the next year, probably due to winter die off or predation.
The problem is what others have said, lack of numbers due to lack of food, horrible winters and a few other things. This area does not compare to the mid-west and never will. The numbers aren't there. Passing up a deer like this to "let him grow" even with antler restrictions is a big gamble that the deer will even live to be 4.5-5.5 years old just due to Mother Nature. Fawns numbers are low due to the harsh winters and low numbers on top of some coyote issues as well. It's comparing apples to oranges for this are to mid-west. You are talking big, big woods with low agriculture. Its the reason that the agricultural areas around here in the same area are even night and day. For example I mostly hunt agricultural areas which are 15 miles south of BMW and areas that are big woods and 15 miles north of me are completely different. Again. I'm not bashing anyone or anything just that it's hard and unrealistic as well to put state wide regulations in place over a much vast difference in a state such as New York or Vermont. Just because some want to shoot just "trophy" bucks don't think everyone does or can which is a catch 22 I guess. Why should some be punished for the "better off" folks who have unlimited land or great land in great areas to hunt with food plots and all that are inaccessible. While the others are hunting state land or sharing land with a bunch of people just to be out in the woods and enjoy hunting. I guess if you want a point restriction then open up all land to whoever wants to hunt (but that's impossible to do) and you will see a different attitude. I guess I'm not the only one with these questions. I'm just still on the fence with QDM for these reasons (due to the area I'm in). I hope some of this makes sense. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I live in NY. I have hunted deer in NY since 1990. I owned property in both the southern zone and in the northern zone( tug hill and near Schroon lake). I have deer hunted in Maine and New Hampshire. So I am very familiar with everything you stated however I still do not agree your response of shooting any buck with a piece of bone on its head. Even despite all the hardships stated can and will find mature does in the woods year after year raising fawns. If a percentage of does can survive maturity in NY and VT then so could bucks, however that will never happen if we as hunters keep shooting every immature buck we encounter. I get it. The status quo is ok for some of us. That's all well and good however you shouldn't complain about the lack of mature bucks when your actions as mostly to blame for it. I include myself in that assessment btw.
As a Green Mountain state resident and hunter for years it is definitely tough to consistently get mature buck photos. Some of the reasons for sure have been touched on in above comments such as its all public land so its severely pressured throughout, their is no antler restriction so people go out and smash 110lb 3pt bucks rather than letting them grow and some tough winters for the little ones from all the people smashing prego mature does late season in December. I have gotten some decent bucks on photos throughout the years and my brother has gotten big 10s, and 8 pts but keeping them around on small farms with Ag all around can be extremely tough. Owning a lot of land you can use QDM tactics on would be a solid start for sure. VTers go out and smash the first thing they see so nothing gets a chance to grow. but every year I do see mature bucks getting shot around here and up in the NEK but you have to put some work in or get some **** luck. I prefer getting out there and putting in some hard work. But being on public land for sure can be tough. but love my 802 hunting and the work it takes. also chase them black bears which a lot of people leave alone. 802bowlife.
I definitely sympathize with the problems you guys are talking about. Hunting in a state and area that is absolutely busting at the seams with great deer it is hard for me to imagine what you are going through. I know that KY has never faced and will never face many of the obstacles that you guys speak of with the weather and the lack of habitat but back when I first started deer hunting we did face the problems of having a weak mature buck population and as a result too many hunters that carried around the "gotta get a buck" mentality. It was on the last day of my 3rd hunting season before I saw my first deer while hunting and I finally killed my first deer (a basket 8) in my 4th season. Back then all of my family and friends were going out to shoot the first buck that we saw and we killed many yearling and 2 yr old bucks. Even guys that had killed some bigger deer would still shoot the first buck they saw cause you know... gotta get a buck. Eventually though KY hunters in large numbers changed their ways. We are blessed beyond all reckoning with the habitat that we have so the Lord gets most of the credit but after that... WE made the difference. Not KDFWRs one buck rule or anything else they have done... it was us. A very high percentage of us wouldn't even consider shooting a buck we deem to be be younger than 4 yrs old. That is the only way you get great results. Nothing the Fish and Wildlife folks can do can compensate for the wrong mindset. And by wrong mindset I'm not saying that a person doesn't have every right to approach their hunting and shooting of deer however they like. If you get what you want out of hunting and are enjoying yourself shooting whatever comes by then no one should tell you to do otherwise. However on the flip side don't complain about the buck quality and pine for better opportunities and then go out and be part of the very problem that you are complaining about. If you want to have better opportunities to hunt nicer bucks and can get the meat that you need and want by shooting does then why would you ever shoot a young buck? Does VT for example have a buck only tag? If so then there is something they should get rid of. Let people fill every tag with does to get their meat if they are willing. I have a couple buddies in PA and they have these same complaints. Same from my friends in Michigan. Too many hunters that will shoot any buck they see. Good luck to you guys. I will be rooting for you to get on some good hunting.
In VT you get 3 deer a year, only two can be legal bucks. that's spread out through archery, rifle and muzzy season in December. Archery you could tag a doe and a buck and have a buck tag for rifle season, but if you fill those tags you cant hunt during muzzy cause you filled your three tags. you can only tag a doe in archery and muzzy season if you draw an antlerless tag. you're spot on with the "have to kill a deer" mentality and kills us that want land management and big bucks. not everyone dreams that way so it hurts the ones that do want to kill a nice mature buck. if you aren't careful everywhere you hunt you'll see vehicles parked and people in the woods. an antler restriction is about the only way you can stop people from smashing all those young little 4pt bucks that weight nothing. also some less doe tags being given out in December may help to in the sense of getting more fawns born in the spring. this is also why I plan to hit the Midwest to pursue the 120-140" bucks rather than the pressured young bucks here. but, like I have mentioned if you put the work in and go deep in the right set of timber you can be very successful out here. I always plan to get that nice early season doe, preferably a bear in sept and then chase a nice buck around October and November before everyone runs thought the public land woods disturbing everything
I really wish the F&W Board would go to 3pt antler restriction rather then 2pt and 1 Buck per YEAR instead of two. We should also only be able to shoot 1 antlerless per year instead of the 2-3 we can shoot now(2 bow, 1 muzzy). Lastly I would not allow any does to be shot after October and move the antlerless Muzzy to a 9 day stretch in October(I don't care if Archery and Muzzy run concurrent if Archery season is extended). I would also start bow season September 15 and have it run straight through the end of Muzzy(2nd Bow) minus Youth Weekend and allow 1 Buck and 1 Antlerless. If you shoot your 2 with a bow then you have no Rifle or Muzzy season. These changes would force Archers especially, to be more choosy on wha bucks they shoot, knowing that if they shoot a 3-4pt, then they are done with bucks.
Bucks use Sooooooooooo much more energy than Does in the Fall chasing and breeding and I think this is why mature Does do better than mature bucks during VT winters. I have a lot of photos of bucks that survived, even mild winters, that look like skeletons come Spring and then produce freakish crappy antlers because of their poor nutrition. I live in mountainous Roxbury where deer survive on twigs most of the winter because the apples, clover and beech nuts are all under 4' of snow for 4-5 months. Addison, Rutland, Bennington and Windham counties may be a different story because their climate is soooo much better than Washington/Orange County. I don't shoot 3-4pts, anymore not in 15 years, where I live and have indeed seen some nice 8pts on camera, though never taken one that big here, hence why I've not shot an 8pt in VT ever. That's a lot to be said since I've lived on the same 50 acres for 18 years and plant food plots every year. It's just crazy hard in this microcosim of VT.
I totally agree with everything you just suggested for sure. definitely need to stop smashing does come the rut and such when they are becoming pregnant with the future deer/bucks that we need in the state. starting early to extend our bow season would also be great as well as throwing muzzy in early season rather than in december. most states it does run concurrent or right after bow season, not the month wait we have here. an antler restriction would be a great start, then lowering it to 1 buck and 1 doe a year. I wish more people felt this way about conservation and QDM and wish the state took this all into account as well. I really hope VT starts to address all this sooner than later.
I may very well shoot him if he crosses my path. I'm torn, cause next year he would be a really nice 3.5 yr old, but he may not make it depending on the winter and coyotes. Very torn on this one. He should be an 8 pt, he has 4 on the right, but he only produced 2 pts on the left. Typical crappy genetics for this part of VT.
