Unions .... are you for them in TODAY'S society?

Nope, but I was involved in the process of voting in a Union. Sadly, once the vote went in favor of the company they hung us out to dry. It was a case where a Union was needed so I walked away.

 

Exactly why I am not buying any more "American Made" cars or trucks. I do not support socialism nor do I support unions.

 

They did good... a long time ago. Now, NOPE. When you can't fire someone for being a duffus...well, it's a said thing. The unions... who always vote for the Democrats.. have chased more jobs overseas than anyone else. Soon, they won't have enough members to counter the new power vote... the illegal immigrants.

 

I have been and It was no fun. I wasn't on the union side of It but a job still needed to get done. When my dad still owned the milk hauling business back In 1997 the milk plant that I haul milk to went on strike. There was so many threats made to my dad It was pathetic. I moved back home during the strike, I was nervous for my parents. Nails were put on my parents driveway, people swerving at my dad In the milk truck and at my mom In her pick up trying to run them off of the road. Threatening phone calls being made, etc. I retaliated back at these worthless ****s making the threats and found out they weren't so tough with out their union brothers when they were by themselves. My dad still had a job to do but 70% of the union strikers at this milk plant couldn't see past their nose. Never do I want to go through that again, never.

 

This thread sure stinks, reminds me of a mixture of smells, like Corporate Ass and Saliva. Sure not hard to tell who has been to a few power meetings.

Funny how the same ones that think their worth more for having a couple more years education of art , dance, and photography classes at their local community collage are the same ones that think those that go through an apprenticeship program (Job Specific) for their jobs, are worth less.

I have worked Union and Non Union in and out of Plant, Line Jobs, Construction, Structural Steel Jobs from Michigan to Alabama, Coal Washing plants in Kentucky, Water Oil seperators for Pennzoil in Louisiana, to Core of Engineer Jobs out to Kansas and have met great workers and turds alike on union and non union jobs both. That being said, the 3 worse companys I have ever worked for hands down were non union.
If I was paid cash money today for all the welds I have had to grind off and re weld over the years from Burger King Welders I could pay cash for a new 4x4 truck, and don't get me started on what the little lines in between the numbers on a tape measure mean, let alone read a blueprint. My favorite was the crew that showed up and they all had claw hammers to drive bull and drift pins with.

If it was not for unions you would still be making 36 cents an hour and wearing burlap undies.

To say the unions and OSHA have outlived their usefullness, is like saying you don't need a condom to have sex with an AIDS patient, It's the dumbest crap I have ever heard.
People in this Country make a good living in most cases because some union member has paid their dues for them. For this reason Non Union Corporations are forced to pay competitive wages to keep quality ememployes and most non union members know and understand this.
They don't do it because your so special.

Unions don't make corporations fail, piss poor management and greed is what causes corporations to fail.
If I agree with a contractor on a price for a new house and fail to have the money when it's done, It's my fault. If a company agrees to pay it's union members a certain wage and fails, how in the hell is it the unions fault.
Any DSOB should have known when gas hit 2.50 a fricken gallion and was saying it was going to hit 5.00 you stop making SUV's, giant 4x4's and start making gas savers. A slow third grader and some simple math can figure these things out, yet there are some that gobble it up.

CEO's made 20 % higher wages 30 years ago, now it's closer to 400% for most of the top corporations, and they get bonuses for failing.

And for the record I changed my mind, This is the dumbest Chit I ever seen.

I can't think of one communist country that has a union. As a matter of fact people in some communist countrys risk death going to the polls in Dreams of the rights to organize and bargain for better wages and working conditions.
Your Great Uncle Stalin would be proud.

Now lets get the facts stright on a few things .

Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1991 between the three nations, the leaders met in San Antonio, Texas, on December 17, 1992, to sign NAFTA. U.S. President George H.W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas, each responsible for spearheading and promoting the agreement, ceremonially signed it. The agreement then needed to be ratified by each nation's legislative or parliamentary branch.
Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it to the House of Representatives, Clinton introduced clauses to protect American workers and allay the concerns of many House members.
The House of Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by a vote of 234 to 200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats. NAFTA passed the Senate 61-38. Clinton signed it into law on December 8, 1993; it went into effect on January 1, 1994.

Now the Bushwhacker, W, also expanded a form of NAFTA called FTA to includ or extend Australia, Bahrain, Jordan, Chili, Morocco, Oman, Paru and Singapore.
As if this was not enough he eagerly revised the tax codes to benefit wealthy CEO's giving incentive for companys to ship jobs overseas, allowing proffits of US-based multinationals to be subject to taxation only when their foreign earnings are repatriated.
I belive the year after the Bushwhacker did the first tax cut the top 50 CEO's that offshored average pay rase was 43 FRICKING % not counting a Bonus.
When Bush took office a small group of people controled 20% of the Worlds wealth, they now have 40%,. Not a bad 8 years.


And you aint seen nothing yet. Keep sitting around with your thumbs stuck up your asses and voting like your cheering for your home town football team, and let this Superam Court Ruling go unchanged and see where your at in 10 years. But some need not worry, Politicians and Corporate suck asses should do well.


The only thing I can see being worse than a corporate ass kisser, is being a forgin corporate ass kisser. JMHO.

 

Silverflicker- Well said, i'm proud of you. Your right , it's not that middle class guy hurtin the economy, but that non-union thieving money grabbing CEO, and his non union henchmen, who line up behind him kissen butt to keep their high payin job.

 

400% decrepancy in salaries. Does anyone have an actually figure for the decrepancy between liability? If a union/non-union built product fails, or if there's a safety violation, do union/non-union employees share the responsibility/liability/ligitgation cost,et al?

As a general contractor, I would gladly pay a man $36/hour to paint. I would in a heart beat if he/she was producting a perfect, time efficient, clean product. I've seen slob painters that make $18/hour and require twice as much time to yeild half as good a job ($18 x twice as long +half as good=delays and more work and headaches for me).

Got to good to work....will continue!

 

I have read this thread with interest. I am a former member of the IBEW. I will never be a member again. In 1998 I was a journeyman electrician sitting on the bench waiting for a ticket. I sat the bench for two weeks. The nephew of a shop steward came in and went to work the same day. He was not hired on as a foreman. That would have been legal if he was requested as a foreman. As another non forman journeyman he should have sat the bench until his turn came up. Myself and several others complained and filed grievances. No action was taken. I soon after that joined the IEC, Independant Electrical Contractors. I was hired the same day I applied, made comparable wages, got a benefit package that took less out of my pocket and have not missed a day of work since unless I wanted to.
I got a great education in the union going through the apprenticeship program. However the IEC offers the same program. I also got training in the IEC that the union didn't offer called the Professional Electrician Program. In depth training for journeyman and master electricians.
Oh, and I don't pay dues in the IEC.
After my experience, I'd say unions suck today. Once upon a time the were a good thing. Not now.

 

We have all seen extremes. Unions have done a good job to protect against extremes. But when Unions become extreme themselves the system can and will fail. It's happening today. Unless you work for yourself, you are paid to do a job-union or non-union. If the product (perhaps you) is profitable, without risk (resulting from continuous R&D, training/education, improvement), reliable, etc., then the product will be desired and will maintain longevity. It really is a matter of "getting what we pay for". Be real when assessing the variables...

 

I have had a bias against unions for pretty much all my life. I grew up in a small town with only one industry that happened to be unionized. After the countless strikes and demands, the owner simply said that he cannot come close to affording what the union demands were and closed the plant, it hasn't been open since. This is crippling for a town of 3000 with virtually one place to work. The town has about a 1000 today.

The biggest problem I have with unions is the notion that they will pull all the workers, regardless if that worker is happy or not and strike if the union as a whole doesn't get what it wants. Legalized extortion is the only term that comes to mind. It forces the company to agree to things it cannot afford only because it costs them more money to have all their workers sitting on the picket line. How is that "American"?

As for the low bid receiving contracts, I used to work for a international construction company and when bidding work within the states, we had to find out ahead of time if we were going to be forced, yes forced to hire union because the charge out rate was at least 20% higher. You try and go the non unionized route in those places and you quickly find out that it's not worth the trouble. Orange spray paint on white company trucks at the hotel, constant picketting and not to mention the eggs that get thrown.

I've been the guy behind the pencil bidding these jobs and let you tell you that it is not as simple as low bid gets the job, it's the lowest union rate bidder gets the job in these areas.

Heck we've even signed contracts with union shops for certain jobs with the scope of work and schedule clearly defined and the union rep on site would constantly threaten to call a union meeting because he felt his carpenters were getting worked too hard, after he was the one who dictated the amount of bodies on site at a given time!

You know now as I type this, I realize it's not unions in general that I'm against, it's the poorly run ones that make it sour for the rest. I have no time for seniority (never mind who's more qualified), and any type of legacy pay. I read somewhere above a guy was getting paid $200 a day or week or whatever for months after they were let go? That is so wrong, all that money gets added to price of the product they are producing and in no way is based on production.

 

If what you say is true in your area, that is sad. I would never take part in such actions.

Here I have never striked, been on a picket line or took part in any of the things you mentioned. Spray paint and throw eggs, that is ridiculous.

I will say I do not agree with seniority, but we do not have that here. It would piss me off if I were to get layed off for another guy who is not as efficient because he has more time in than me. Our contract is a performance based system with the contractor / employee relationship. My union hall does not assign me a job. I find my own work, and hard work keeps me employed with that contractor.

Really all my union hall does for me is collect my pension, annuities, and health care monies and manage them.

There are many commercial jobs that go non union in my area that we also bid and lost.

 

It seems pretty apparent that the Unions in your area have their act together compared to some other areas. I have witnessed some of the tactics mentioned and it really has the wrong effect. Performance based contracts are great, it is how my company compensates and rewards employees. Hopefully this thread has raised your awareness that not all Unions are run as well as yours, I now understand your previous points in defense of Unions due to how yours is run.

 

Jas with all due respect everything in IL is screwed up buddy!

 

Your first sentence is not 100% accurate..... We have a lot of UAW (United Auto Workers) here and they have mismanaged their union fairly badly over the years. Delphi Packard Electric employees also really screwed themselves as well over the years.

They truely have become their own worst enemy.

 

This thread sure stinks, reminds me of a mixture of smells, like Corporate Ass and Saliva. Sure not hard to tell who has been to a few power meetings.

No, some of us want to be measured on our own merit and ability, not rely on some union hack to do it for us, and some of us well, we just have a greater understanding of what those higher wages and benefits do the company that we work for.

Funny how the same ones that think their worth more for having a couple more years education of art , dance, and photography classes at their local community collage are the same ones that think those that go through an apprenticeship program (Job Specific) for their jobs, are worth less.

I don't know about you, but I personally worked my way through the construction industry, specifically finish carpentry and cabinet making (20 years worth), now I am finishing my junior year of college, majoring in Operations and Supply Chain Management. I have always felt the same way about unions and their mentality.

I have worked Union and Non Union in and out of Plant, Line Jobs, Construction, Structural Steel Jobs from Michigan to Alabama, Coal Washing plants in Kentucky, Water Oil seperators for Pennzoil in Louisiana, to Core of Engineer Jobs out to Kansas and have met great workers and turds alike on union and non union jobs both. That being said, the 3 worse companys I have ever worked for hands down were non union.
If I was paid cash money today for all the welds I have had to grind off and re weld over the years from Burger King Welders I could pay cash for a new 4x4 truck, and don't get me started on what the little lines in between the numbers on a tape measure mean, let alone read a blueprint. My favorite was the crew that showed up and they all had claw hammers to drive bull and drift pins with.

And I have exactly the opposite experience in dealing with union carpenters. In the Pacific Northwest and in the upper Midwest.


If it was not for unions you would still be making 36 cents an hour and wearing burlap undies.

Nope, I work to hard and am not afraid to do what it takes to get the job done, every day of the week and I will not walk out on the guy that I work for.

To say the unions and OSHA have outlived their usefullness, is like saying you don't need a condom to have sex with an AIDS patient, It's the dumbest crap I have ever heard.
People in this Country make a good living in most cases because some union member has paid their dues for them. For this reason Non Union Corporations are forced to pay competitive wages to keep quality ememployes and most non union members know and understand this. They don't do it because your so special.

This is simply wrong, just as welfare was intended to be a temporary solution or any other organization, their current position is nothing more than to self perpetuate. Also, if the American people and most companies still needed unions then why are they on the decline and the only organization that continues to employ large amounts of unionized workers are government agencies, and just look at how inefficient they are.


Unions don't make corporations fail, piss poor management and greed is what causes corporations to fail.

Wrong! It is a combination of the two and a corporation that has union employment is trapped and has no leg to stand on if the workers walk out. The employee employer relationship is gone and that has a tragic affect on business.



Any DSOB should have known when gas hit 2.50 a fricken gallion and was saying it was going to hit 5.00 you stop making SUV's, giant 4x4's and start making gas savers. A slow third grader and some simple math can figure these things out, yet there are some that gobble it up.

This shows what you understand about the economy and microeconomics. Even before I went off and got my "couple more years education of art , dance, and photography classes at their local community collage" as you put it I could grasp that. Businesses build, make, or sell what CUSTOMERS want or need.


I can't think of one communist country that has a union. As a matter of fact people in some communist countrys risk death going to the polls in Dreams of the rights to organize and bargain for better wages and working conditions.
Your Great Uncle Stalin would be proud.

Communist countries may not have unions, but employees there act just like American union workers. Try working with a Russian or two.


Now lets get the facts stright on a few things .

What is clear from the liberal left wing crap you copied and pasted from other websites is that America could not continue to isolate its self and rely on its self to build and or make everything that we consume. The fact that the isolated American economy could not sustain the current level of demand needed to be addressed, and working with other countries to increase trade was a necessary step in the right direction. The Obama loving attitude that we can somehow bring jobs back to America or protect American jobs is purely as false as the idea that Obama is somehow a decent president.

The real facts are that with higher costs comes higher prices. America wants goods and services and a low price and to make a high wage. In order to do that some things are going to need to be made overseas.

 

Educate Yourself...

...http://www.nber.org/digest/may09/w14709.html

This research clearly shows that there is a negative effect of having unions

And this on minimum wage...

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba550/

And:
The labor union will cause a supply curve to shift to the left and the wage rate in that industry will increase while the labor employed will decrease. The labor that lost jobs may be engaged in the industry without union where the supply curve has shifted to the right. The wage rate will be lower, but more labors are employed.The union may call a strike for their own benefits or for political purposes, but it might cause the industry to be paralyzed, like the strike by the train union in France. This translates to BAD things for the general workforce.

And this from the Journal of Labor Research

Using a variety of statistical techniques, we conclude that labor unions have reduced U.S. output by significant amounts —trillions of dollars over time. Additionally, the employment- population ratio and the unemployment rate have been adversely affected by the presence of unions. From the very beginning, unionization materially lowered employment in the auto and steel industries, and union militancy in coal mining has contributed importantly to largely eliminating employment in this once large industry. While some individual workers have profited from unions, the aggregate economic impact is strongly negative.


Well, thanks to the union hacks for all you have done for the American economy.

 

Good links Mad.

Makes one wonder if forced health care benies will have the same affect on employees/employers. I see larger numbers of unemployed on the horizon.

 

In the private sector Government jobs are on the rise with the bills passing

 

You had me at hello Sliver... had me at hello.

Good stuff... and I'm Republican... for the most part.

 

Duke...Sliv.....I play the hand that's dealt. The dealer says I'll make more money (on average) if I have a degree.

Never actually recall anyone who thinks a man's education is anything other than a really good thing. If the game were different, I'd play that game.

It's not.

I think I ended up paying about $3K total for my college education. I'm betting I've gotten over 175X ROV, so far.

Smartest $$ I ever spent. My corporate suck ass sleeps fine.