This 100% is true in my experience in discussions with folks that kill or witness kills vastly more than most of us ever will (outfitters). I truly believe it is the mind/eye of the hunter gravitating at shot to "center mass" of the target. I know early in my years I did it more than I didn't...seemed always my shot would hit two or three inches further back than I'd desired. Not the case anymore, but oh my word was it ever back then. Fully admit I just jinxed myself and will probably gut shot a deer this year.....ugh.....
Agreed. Just like it's ignorant to shoot a deer at 100 yards with a crossbow. But when people market these devices as being capable of doing something, you know people are going to do it. What's the point of having an arrow that can bust through a shoulder "just in case" if it can't really do it?
Just another thought; by tinkering around with all of this, I have shot and practiced more this off season than ever before. I also have to give credit to a lot of members here who have directly or indirectly given me some great advice and insight and that has helped me become a better bow hunter. In the past, I relied on one or two shops and close friends (not always the most knowledgeable) to "set up" my set up. Point is, I'm trying my hardest to be an accurate and effective hunter and I have become more in depth and dedicated in that approach. So, I appreciate the resources out there and here. What started as an endeavor to go heavier actually lead me to become more accurate, quieter and consistent with a balanced set up and I feel that is a good thing. Pretty cool to get so many different angles from all of you who have been at this for so much longer than I have been.
Ugh. Everytime @Justin comments on something with such knowledge, although it may not be directed towards me, I feel scolded. It's like having that old grandpa sit you down and learn ya what he learned long ago. good stuff! Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk
I like how you worked the branding in there. First, let's clarify what "in the shoulder" means- when most deer hunters I know talk about shooting a deer in the shoulder; they really mean humerus. The bone between the elbow and the scapula. You shoot just inside that, or hit then when the nearside leg is slightly back; you penetrate that it means a dead deer. black circle is the humerus. When the deer steps forward, that nearside leg pivots back and the humerus completely blocks the heart and major cardio pulmonary arteries and veins. You shoot that, you break that bone, you have a dead deer in very, very short order. With my heavy arrows, I would rather aim for the bottom of the green every single time, without a care in the world as to bone; rather than at the yellow circle and pray I don't miss 2" to the rear or 2" high. The bottom of the green X is the right spot every time- whether or not there is a bone in the way. Basically, 2" in any direction on the center of the green X is a dead deer in short order.
Excellent post @dnoodles and to be fair this misunderstanding of how the bone structure which runs from the leg up to the shoulder I think is also a LARGE factor in why outfitters express most "mishits" are back and not forward - explaining their appreciation of mechanical style heads at times as @Justin shared.
Center punch. (Sorry couldn't help myself.) That I would not do unless he's right on top of you because right or left and you're in for a world of hurt.
The heavy arrow thing really gets my panties in a knot. It's not even that I'm against it, it's that people tend to latch onto new trends and overcompensate for other issues by changing their gear setup. As if somehow it will magically make all of their deer more dead. 450-500 grain arrows are more than capable of penetrating any animal you want to shoot with them and killing them quickly - with any kind of broadhead you want to shoot. Rather than obsessing about building these ridiculous high FOC rhino killing setups, I would rather see people focus on shot placement, tuning their bows, practicing more, and getting closer to their quarry. All of those things will have a much greater positive outcome than building absurdly heavy setups. People act is if a heavy arrow setup is the one thing that's been missing all of these years. If only we knew then what we know now, our trophy rooms and freezers would abound! All of the deer we shot in the backstraps, guts, and briskets would never have gotten away if my arrow went through and killed a tree 20 yards on the other side of the deer. I find it so strange that we can ask for real-world opinions from people who have shot and killed hundreds of animals with a bow and arrow, and seen hundreds more get shot and been a part of the recovery, and their opinions are discounted in favor of someone that came out of nowhere to tell us what Ashby already told us decades ago. He's turned into this YouTube Messiah and the bowhunting community thinks he speaks some untold truth that big, bad broadhead lobby has been suppressing. Okay, I'm done now. I have work to do.
Wonder what the average experience is of the average person that hunts a guided trip with an outfitter.
To be fair, heavy arrows have been used vastly longer than lighter set ups. Just talk to the Native Americans and traditional bow shooters. They lob HEAVY set ups.
Thanks. I actually made that a week or two ago, but thought it was fitting for this thread. I'm not sure who you're talking to, but everyone I know that talks about "shoulder shots" is typically referring to the high shoulder/scapula. I rarely see people shoot low into the humerus. 2" in any direction of your yellow circle is still a very dead deer, regardless of your arrow setup. Although, IMO, the best spot to aim is the top left corner of your green X. You easily have 6" of leeway in any direction to easily kill a deer with that shot. Hugging the shoulder is completely unnecessary for an ethical kill, and, regardless of your arrow setup, is a poor idea. Just my not so humble opinion of course.
By this argument, we should all be using self bows and knapped stone broadheads. Just b/c something has been around longer doesn't mean it's unequivocally better. Heavier setups are no doubt better than lighter setups, but there is no need to build dangerous game arrows when you're hunting whitetail deer. And to tell people they aren't shooting an "adult arrow" unless they follow your guideline is stupid.
Went from 375 grains to 545 for this upcoming season. Yes Fairy and Ashby influenced but honestly I love how calm and quiet my bow is now. I shoot every day anyway and love that part of it as much as hunting. And from our ground blind we shoot 25 yards or less so.... can’t wait Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matter of fact Justin and crew did an interview with one outfitter discussion that specifically discussed broadheads, but still good insight.
Oh hell I wasn't even in this argument. I think I shoot a rather standard weight hunting arrow. I just wanted to poke fun at your age. Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk
Honestly, I've yet to have someone truly start seeing what flies best out of their bows - meaning 3-5 different arrow builds shot over a time without fatigue - finding that the lightest arrow flies/impacts/groups the best. That may mean they were shooting 400 full weight set up before, tested 425, 450 and 475...or could be they were very light sub 400 and discovered 425 shoots much better. There is no magic perfect setup, but truly researching and testing will almost always lead to a better set up.
Its not an argument at all, merely refuting the concept many put out there that this is something new. It just is false. Trust me you're not talking to a guy with a water buffalo pointed 2x4 set up LOL
So I'm going to assume you're strong dislike of heavy arrow discussions centers mostly around the over top approach of the fairy given the mention of "adult arrows". Dude is a wealth of knowledge, but I 100% agree is almost impossible for me to listen to for an extended amount of time.
That's how I landed on 425gr. I was shooting a 368gr arrow for a long time. Never did research about arrows or spine or weight. Just in recent years started doing research and testing and realized my light arrow flew terrible, had bad penetration(probably due to poor flight) and was loud as ever. Bumped up weight gradually to find an arrow that tuned well, was quieter while still maintaining some speed. Now I just changed bows again and I'm shooting about 40fps faster now, so its time to do some testing to make sure this bow agrees with these arrows. Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk
