Look into the FOCOS system from Black Eagle for those arrows. They're a 100 grain insert/outserts and they work awesome. I ran them last year with good results and was able to bump my weight up from 440 with a 50 grain brass HIT to around 500 with the FOCOS system.
I am in the process of doing the same thing with 75 grain brass inserts for the Renegades. I am currently experimenting with arrows that are 572, 597, and 620 grains. I may even build one to 700 just for kicks and giggles.
For me personally, once you get past 500 grains I don't see a major benefit. A 500 grain arrow with a good fixed head is going to kill any whitetail you shoot with it and will break through the flat part of a shoulder blade if it needs to. I don't get the craze of building 600+ grain arrows for whitetails. I feel like there is a point of diminishing returns. A 450-500 grain arrow does a great job of quieting your bow down, producing ample amounts of momentum, providing great penetration, and allowing you to retain some speed that can come in handy with yardage estimations and, to a lesser extent, deer reaction times. A 500 grain arrow moving at 280 fps is generating 87 ft/lbs of kinetic energy. The age-old standard for whitetail hunting has been 55 ft/lbs. How much more do we really need? And is it worth giving up the speed to get it? Especially when guys are trying to stretch shots out to 50-60-70+ yards.
In the context of white tails only, what you say makes a lot of sense. However, I am building a do-all arrow that is capable of killing any big game animal in North America. I hunt elk and moose every few years. Personally, I would rather have one do-all arrow that may be overkill for white tails and hunt consistently with that every year rather than having to go back and forth between different set ups. It is not for everyone, but I am willing to give up some speed with whitetails in pursuit of a better chance on pass-through on larger animals. Speed is not the most important factor in deciding the outcome of a collision. Just curious, if the speed of the projectile is the same, would rather get shot with a .22 or a .50 cal? Also, Kinetic Energy is an excellent way to assess the amount of energy that a bow produces and transfers into the arrow in the instant the string is released. It loses all relevance the when arrow loses contact with string. A collision between two objects, say a animal and an arrow, is evaluated in the context of momentum. In a collision, the winner is the one with the best mass. You get run over by a vehicle; do want to be hit by a moped or a Mack truck?
@Justin Personally I would like to see more diy out of state public land hunts. Cost them out, lodging ect.. You guys are in such a unique position with the style of show you run and having the forum. I know that borders on The Hunting Public but just like most of the hunting programs out there I think you could do it better. And now that I am switching back to Traditional, yall need a trad shooting staffer or two, lol! I remember a few episodes the featured them, who can forget that epic creek crossing, but nothing better than having a few more.
The last few years I've done Kansas, Wisconsin, Kentucky and Iowa. And I've failed to kill anything on all of those trips. We're definitely planning on doing more of those types of hunts in the future. I can't strike out every year! Or can I? This fall is going to be tough for me to squeeze in any DIY public stuff as I'm pretty booked up already. I am going to try and do a little bit in WI during September and I'm trying my hardest to talk Todd into a "Todd vs Justin public land challenge" for 2 days here in IL. I want to do it from saddles too. Paul Morrison is our resident trad shooter. He's got a turkey, whitetail and mulie under his belt with more to come.
That makes sense for you. However, most of the guys pimping their dangerous game setups are shooting 200 lb whitetails. ***Warning shameless sponsor plug ahead!*** If you shoot an HHA Tetra Max you can have different wheels set up for different arrow weights and switch back and forth at your leisure. :D Yes, momentum is a better indicator of penetration potential, however, KE is easier to calculate and gets you close to the same results. Higher KE setups will typically have higher momentum values as well. It's not an exact science, but it's a pretty accurate representation IMO. I think your analogy is a bit off if you're comparing a 500 grain arrow to a 700 grain arrow. The 500 grain arrow would be an F150 going 65 mph and the 700 grain arrow would be your Mack truck going 55 mph. I'm deader than dead in either case. The F150 more than got the job done, and gave me a little less opportunity to jump out of the way first.
I don't shoot an HHA sight, but thanks for the heads up, I will look into it the next time I am considering a new sight.
Sounds like we are on relatively the same page. If you haven't heard of it, you may be interested in the research by the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ Their research points towards heavier weights in combination with high FOC as being the key. You have a point, the .22 vs .50 cal was a much better analogy if speed is equal or has so little difference that it is a non factor.
Sorry man, but this is some sillyshit. What deer will stay around for 6 shots and then a gun shot...?
One that is gut shot and does not want to move unless forced would be my guess. On its own, I completely agree that that one testimonial does seem to be far more about a terribly inexperienced hunter rather than arrow set up. It is a sketchy testimonial. I was doubtful when I read that. However, unless there is a terrible fraud going on, as in one man has completely made up 30 years of research based upon shooting animals bigger than white tail deer, I think the science behind the approach is plausible. Personally, I have lost deer using both mechanical and fixed blade broad heads. I have lost deer using different brands of arrows. I have lost deer when I got complete pass-through but mechanical blades failed to deploy, so it was like shooting with a field point. I have lost deer when fixed blades stuck in the offside shoulder and pass through was not achieved. Both scenarios resulted in poor blood trails and deer that went a long way. The only thing I haven't tried is building arrows that are heavier than 470 grains with high FOC. So I am going to try that and see if I start getting better penetration and complete pass through on the shots with both great and poor shot placement. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But, I am convinced after both successful kills and the failed recoveries, penetration and pass through are the best chance at success. If building a heavier arrow and sacrificing speed will increase the odds of that, I am willing to try it.
grant woods did a really cool episode with two bows, one shooting less poundage with a lighter arrow vs a heavier poundage bow and a heavy arrow... good episode you’d be surprised with the results. It backs up what you just mentioned..
I really like the idea of arrow building details, especially pertaining to setting them up and tuning them to perform the same and group together well. Many buy arrows that are already fletched, but haven't been fletched with the cock vane on the dynamic spine, and so the arrows will group in different spots. Then they don't know why, don't even know that it's an arrow issue and just think they are pulling some of their shots, don't know to nock tune, or if they do nock tune they end up with arrows that some of them are aligned with the cock vane and some are aligned with a different vane. Then you have to remember that every time you load an arrow, or have the fletching stripped and re-applied to make them all the same. Of course the easiest thing would be if the manufacturers would always fletch according to the dynamic spine. And Justin, I can't like your post about arrow weights enough. I'm more of a "balanced" arrow guy, it's just a better set up for the way I hunt elk with unknown yardage shots on occasion. I hunt with a fixed pin sight and shoot 3D with a mover. I run a 375 grain arrow for 3D and a 430 grain arrow for hunting. I leave the single pin sighted in for the light arrows and the fixed sighted in for the heavier arrows and swap sights as needed with zero POI changes.
