I could not have said it better nor more concisely. In general I agree that police are becoming too militarized. But this case is a textbook example of when, how, and why SWAT is used. Had they not used a "no-knock" warrant, we could very well be reading about how some Atlanta PD SWAT team member was killed during execution off a warrant leaving behind a wife and 3 kids; and wondering why the heck they didn't do a no-knock believing that the guy was inside and armed. Very easy to arm chair quarterback if you haven't been there, done that. I'm not saying this is necessarily true in this particular case, but these thugs hide behind women and children all the time...often times their women are the worst. The fact that she's already "setting up a fund" because they "don't have insurance" indicates to me that she's already thinking about money, rather than the health of her child. Side note...doesn't she know it is illegal to not have health insurance? Better get SWAT back on the scene and take her away.
probably has to do with the law and actually getting them convicted and tied to the drug. Man, You guys want crime gone but the police too. You guys cry and moan about everything and think you can do it better. It's unfortunate about everything in this case. But judging these guys for an unintentional act is ridiculous. This isn't police brutality this want intentional and they did gather intelligence and acted appropriately.
Why the heck did they need a flash bang in the first place? I've been on dozens of raids in Iraq and Afghanistan for known terrorist and we didn't need flash bangs to catch them. I have a hard time believing this drug dealer was more dangerous than an Al Qaeda or Jaish al Mahdi militiamen. If these policemen want to do raids then they need to train to the level that they can do it quickly, safely, and effectively. Leave the flash bangs to the guys that really need and know how to use them.
Have no problem what so ever. Don't take your kids to a drug house. I'm surprised everyone is so down on the police for raiding houses. What are they supossed to do In some situations? Politely knock on doors and ask if the person that answers is doin anything illegal. If the cops should be brought up on charges so should the parents of this kid for child endangerment. They may or may not of done drugs but I bet they knew what went on in that house.
pretty sure SWAT would be the "guys that really need them and know how to use them." As to how dangerous he was: -prior arrest for meth and guns -known to use meth -known to have used an SKS rifle in commission of an assault -just hours prior, had sold meth to an informant from that specific house Objections to the 3am hit, in this case, have no merit. Meth heads don't sleep for days. They are known to be extremely violent. They are known to resist arrest. The target had a history of violence and weapons. The informant had just bought meth from the target, and they had reason to believe that the target would continue to distribute meth overnight, thereby it was imperative to arrest the subject as soon as possible. There was no indication from the informant that there were children present, and in a previous raid on the same residence no evidence of children was observed. My only possible objection is you would hope they would do surveillance prior to the hit; but in those tight-knit ethnic neighborhoods that can be hard to do b/c of the number of lookouts they use as well as manpower issues.
military and police tactics are a bit different. And yea swat guys would be the ones who are the experts.
Probably becsuse police aren't given the green light to go in and shoot up a house. They haveta apprehend whoever is in there. Some of the doors getting kicked in in Iraq or Afghanistan aren't to go in and arrest someone. Different situations need different tactics and tools.
Almost every raid in Iraq/Afghanistan ended with a detainment/arrest, there was never a green light to just go in shooting. The ROE always had to be respected, target discrimination always had to be used. I'm sure some swat teams are proficient enough to use these tactics and equipment, clearly not all of them are. I'm not trying to insult police or defend the criminals here, I just think more discretion should be used, perhaps they shouldn't throw a flash bang in the house with unknown occupants and they should be prepared to shoot the actual offender if he raises a gun towards them.
just because I'm intellectually honest; I have to disagree with this one - the members of the military (thanks to the press and the current CiC) have more restrictions on use of force than police do. An unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless. Police are allowed to proactively engage; the military (at least boots on the ground military) can typically only react when deadly force is applied to them first (which is lunacy, but I digress...) Drones, on the other hand, apparently can do whatever the heck they want; which is a topic for a different thread.
Yes ROE have to be followed, and your not gonna kick open and start shooting up the place but if you do get engaged is different. I'm betting the police don't have the same ROE as military. All I'm saying is there's differences in every situation. Like you said the SWAT officers probably aren't trained up to the same standards as military, hence the use of flashbangs. They're trying every option to not get in a fire fight and although not in this case a flashbang is supposed to be a non leathel weapon.
Yea I'm well aware of the restrictions that military faces. Theres were something like 7 or 8 levels of threat compared to 5 levels of force we were allowed to use. In the job I had in USMC we carried basically the same as police while on duty. Pulling our sidearm was last resort so one time, jokingly, I asked if I took my extendable baton out and threw it at enemy and he caught it could I just pull sidearm right away. Needless to say I got a good talking to by MSGT which basically was don't say that around the FNG's. Fact of the matter things go wrong in any type of situation like this. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best is basically all you can do.
I get what you're saying and I agree somewhat. I just believe a well-trained four man team in a tight stack can enter quickly and smoothly enough to negate the need for them to use a flash bang to gain entry into a house in this situation. I'm not completely against them using flash bangs, but maybe they should only use them on missions when constant target surveillance was conducted. That's the last thing I will say criticizing the team's actions, I'm sure they never meant to hurt this kid and I do understand that plans that brief well can and do often fall apart.
Ok, they bought drugs from the house, from the man that lived their earlier and went to get a warrant. So they had to go inside the house. Or they could have did it on the porch. Now, we have to assume the police had someone watching the home. Just to see whether to man remained at the home or not during the time it took for them to get the warrant. Then, in their infinite wisdom, they open the door and throw the grenade in. Really? Did they see the guy in that room? Or did they blindly throw it in through the door? A stun grenade is useless if no one is in that room. It has to be aimed at the person you are trying to disable. At the peril of an infant being seriously injured, they are going to win A LOT of money in this case. You can see the ignorance and stupidity jumping out of this case. Poor planning and execution on the SWAT's side.
I definitely agree about the training thing, but the sad fact is unless it gets standardized for all LEO stuff like this will happen. But like u said nothing usually goes how its planned.
Making an assumption isn't the way to base a decision. 1. They bought from this guy through a confidential informant on multiple occasions. (probable cause for the warrant) 2. The family with the children knew the suspect was dealing drugs and hid in another room whenever he did a deal. Leaving no toys or other items out to indicate children in the home. 3. Dealer has a known propensity for violence and weapons (no knock situation) 4. Meth tweakers can go for days without sleeping and get violent (another reason for no knock) 5. A judge has to approve not only the warrant, but a no-knock warrant based on sufficient evidence. 6. A flash bang will momentarily stun and confuse a conscious person. It will also momentarily confuse someone who is asleep. 7. Police were obtaining the drugs from the dealer through a CI, so the arrest could not be made on the porch. What I don't see anyone questioning is the motive for putting the pack and play with the baby in it against the front door. Think like a paranoid meth dealer for a moment and then answer that one.
You guys think the police are out there dealing with baby dolls on the streets? Heck just the other night my buddy marked out with a car and we ended up getting a foot pursuit where the guy ran behind some dark dumpsters on me. I was alone. Ended up taking him into custody....all he was doing was weed........until we found a large amount of cocaine and weed plus a fully loaded 357 within hands reach of the guy the entire time we were speaking with im as he sat in his car. Again, some of you guys and gals that dont deal with this stuff do not realize how dangerous police work is on a daily basis. I could go on but I will refrain.
spot on... like I said before, these scumbags routinely hide behind skirts and cribs. Just like hagis hide behind schools and places of worship. Just another form of cover and concealment to them with no concern of the collateral damage they are inviting. They are counting on the good guys to hesitate or look the other way. There is evil in this world, my friends.
