Things Looking Up in PA... Monster Bucks being taken

Not to sound rude or get anyone up in arms but it is a fact that someone would have to set or legislate the limits


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Atlas, what you have to remember with what your seeing is they also implemented HR ( Herd reduction) at the same time as AR's... too many does slaughtered... which makes up most of your BB's... sightings and experience would be down... I see less deer, bigger bucks. And like Forest, that's all I have to say about that.

 

Lycoming.

 

Yeah pretty sure you have no clue what you are talking about. Maybe the spot you hunt did not improve, but I talk to hunters all across the state, and the only ones upset about it are the old guys that hate change...or are to lazy to put up binoculars and count points before they get trigger happy. And the biggest reason so many 6's and basket 8s get shot is so many people still use that "its Pennsylvania, we don't have big bucks" excuse. We have the most hunters per square mile of any state, so progress will take time. And, again, to many people stuck in their old ways. But, progress has been great over the years.

You posted a picture of 2 nice bucks and another in a field together and used that as proof that NY doesnt need ARs. Well, I will post 7 pictures, all different bucks, all on the same property, all this season. This does not include bucks from last year, bucks on other properties I hunt, bucks on friends properties, or bucks friends have shot...just what runs on my small 120 acres where I have no foodplots, no mineral program, and no management program other then what the state has (this year is the first I decided to hold out for 120" or better, so the deer in these pictures are not effected by that goal yet, as they were already grown when I put that goal in place).

 

x2 on this as well!

 

I was simply showing Matt how taking a snippet from that survey where guys are OK with AR's by a 6/4 count is cherry picking at best..........the rest of the story sure reads differently. I'll bet listening to all those guys around a campfire would tell a whole other story.

I am glad your spot is doing well and look forward to seeing you tag some soon.

 

IMO things are looking up. The first 3 are bucks killed within ten miles or so of me with the third being my best. The fourth was further north.

Here's one from my yard that traveled 3 miles NE and was killed yesterday.





Here's one less than mile might even be the other buck in the pic.

 

Atlas - I'm in agreement with Rob on differentiating between HR and AR. You can do one and not the other, and I do believe PA got heavy handed in a lot of areas with passing out the doe tags. Not all areas, as the herd did need reduced in a lot of areas, but the north central part of the state especially got hammered and I don't necessarily agree with how it was done there. I beleive by far the majority of the frustration in PA today has to do with the herd reduction, not antler restrictions.

For the record, I'm in favor of AR in NY. I also realize that may be a bit selfish, but I'm absolutely out there for the bigger bucks and have been passing a ridiculous amount of small ones for about 15 years between NY and PA. I also understand and respect your view point on this, and that there are people out there that want to choose themselves........but personally I'd be thrilled to see it happen. I think you can pass out some extra doe tags to offset the number of dink bucks not getting killed to end up with a similar total amount of deer killed and meat in the freezer without reducing the total herd or annual harvest numbers. I do also agree with you that today in NY, it's absolutely better than PA was pre AR. The hunting at my main bowhunting property in Otsego County NY is almost as good as the family property I've got in PA. We see the same amount of 120"+ bucks, but due to terrain it's harder to pattern and kill them. With that said I do think it could be better with AR, and has potential to be much better than PA is today if AR were implemented. The bucks we passed in PA we would see in future years. The bucks we pass in NY we pretty much never see again.

I'm not in favor of HR in NY unless the environmnent really needs it in specific areas. I've been hunting NY since 2004 and after hunting in about 7 counties between downstate, Capital District, Adirondacks, and CNY I'm yet to really see an over population like I've seen hunting in many areas in PA back in the late 90's.

 

Sounds like you have a problem with anyone who thinks differently then you.

Great?? LOL Yea, I hear Hadley Creek is jumping out of Illinois and headed your way.

Super........so what does that mean exactly??

 

Dont mind someone thinking different then myself, just don't really see the point of someone bad mouthing a system that has been incredibly successful in a tough area to make work. As I stated before, with the amount of hunters, and hunters set in their old ways, antler regs are something that many could have rightfully bet would fail, but even with odds against them made a huge change to the population of deer in this state for the better. Im pretty sure you are missing the point of the ARs. They were not to put a 140" buck around every tree, to turn PA into a state people go out of their way to come hunt, or break any records. It was to allow the bucks in this state to live longer. The goal was to get 50% or more of our antler harvest beyond the age of 1 1/2 years old. And, it has been reported that not only has that goal been met but also maintained. And for them to get to get big, they need to get some age. The regs have done just that. The pictures I have shown on my small piece of ground prove that they are working in my area, many other pictures posted in this thread, as well as plenty of other places on this site alone show my area is not alone. Go to PA game commissions website and look through their scrap book...some quite amazing deer there. Its also no coincident that several of our state records have been broke more then once in the last 10 years. The elements fighting against the regs will not go away any time soon, so one can not expect PA to be like Il or Iowa. You claim the biggest issue NY has in the number of bucks one hunter can kill is to high. Our issue is close to the same...to many bucks getting killed. In our case its not to many per hunter, its to many hunters per deer. Still leads to to many bucks shot in the long run. But, they have improved a ton, and are still on the rise. Im proud of the people who have fought to bring us the ARs, and have stood by them to this day, and thankful for the change it has made.

 

Well when you make sure to point out the flaws of every person who disagrees with you it sends out that vibe........discredit them as people unworthy of input and only your opinion remains.........only if others extend you the courtesy you don't give them that is.

"incredible" we're going with now?? PLEASE give me reliable statistical evidence this is true.......not some story about your cousins friend who knows a guy who saw a 170". Something comparing the numbers in PA in ANY even remotely reliable way. Not something if I run a p value on it goes right in the trash.

I'm not "badmouthing" your choice...........I'm simply stating the fact that this many years down the road with such minimal gains, combined with other sacrifices to achieve them, it's a failure.

Sooner or later my home state of NY will do something to "improve" our hunting as well. I don't want them making the same mistake as you guys did down there. The only thing worse then failing is letting your pride convince you that you haven't, thus dooming you forever down that road.

Then what's with all the pics and stories of slammers always coming from those defending AR's or trying to show they are working?

Congrats..........you've changed your state from slaughtering spikers to slaughtering 6's and small 8's. I want more for my state then that.

So by your logic if I show you a bunch of pics of NY slammers then we don't need AR's then right??

 

lol all you are doing is talking in a circle, bring up old things to go around what I just said. No need to respond more at this point. I hope your state comes up with a much better plan and grows a ton of monster bucks for you. I will be down here very happy with the results PA has come up to with their current system, and continue to give praise where praise is due. Take care and good luck.

 

I just can't figure out why someone would want or feel the need to legislate other people's idea of fun to make their own idea of fun easier to achieve. I'm tired of this nonsense........telling other people how to live their lives, how big a soda they can buy, how big a deer they can shoot, it's all the same BS from know it all's trying to tell people how to run their lives.

Life's tough dude........if that's your biggest problem then you have it pretty good


Another reason why I don't want these idiots in the DEC dictating what someone can shoot is because they can't even figure out how to count deer or hand out doe tags so I certainly don't trust them with a task that has serious consequences.

Last year I saw 19 does walk by my stand in one afternoon on the second last day of muzzleloader and this year the DMP's came out and our zone was LOW for first choice and NONE for second.


Morons.

 

Big surprise....................god forbid anyone should ask you to back up your bold statements with proof or facts LOL


Don't forget your ball and enjoy your Kool Aid

 

Like Rob, I can only speak for my area (Lycoming County), but the number of quality bucks dropping is definitely increasing. I've been hunting both my parents ground, and our cabin's ground (20 minutes north of here) for all 16 years of my hunting career. My parents ground went from producing maybe 1-2 1.5yr old spikes-6 points per season (with 5 guys hunting 90 acres), to every deer in the past 6 scoring 95" or better. Here are a few samples on a trailcam just off our property (I have permission):













Of course, the buck I shot this year is no monster, but he's MUCH bigger than what any of us were seeing 12 years ago.



Granted, this is quality farm ground (private), so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this on, Atlas.

However, where I actually believe we're seeing results is on our cabin land to the north. Even though it's only 20 minutes north of here, the terrain and habitat is WAY different. A lack of major food sources, coupled with a history of overpopulation (before AR and HR) and a extremely noticeable browse line being developed, meant that historically speaking, the bucks harvested here were often small both rack wise and body size. Our club make take 10 a year (out of 25 guys), but only 1 every couple years was a solid 2.5 or 3.5 yr old deer.

Fast forward to a few seasons after AR/HR was implemented (2G, as Matt eluded to) was one of the most aggressively targeted WMU's in the state in terms of doe license allocations. They were hit HARD. You noticed almost an instant change in deer sightings and density. Quite a few older members (my father included) were NOT happy. They missed the days where they could spotlight in the fields during the offseason and spot 40-50 deer in one 10 acre field. Now, those SAME members (my father included) are praising the changes being made. This year alone, our cabin took 7 bucks during the first two days, and not one was less than a 90", with many in the 100-110" range (Midwest guys, don't laugh, that's a MONSTER for this particular mountain area).

Again, everyone in this area that I talk to is very happy with the results they're seeing. Are there probably people here that aren't absolutely. I'm not really saying the argument can't be made that there are plenty of people in the state whom are unhappy with the effects of AR/HR, but in my immediate area, based on my observations, things are looking up.

 

This is an unwinable debate. Especially when both sides already have thier minds made up.

 

Kind of like politics:D

 

I am believing the reports from the PA guys here.... come on ARs in NY

 

I hope to see them up there soon PT. Would love to get a lease in NY and if they set up ARs they will have me sold.

 

Can someone please explain to me how giving a buck another year to grow, get smarter and potentially dodge hunters the following year is going to hurt the chances of bucks growing bigger in PA?

Outfitters and others like myself who practice QDM have done this for years for reason. Sure, there are lots of bucks that get killed the following year as a 6 or basket 8 instead of something bigger, but apparently some are getting through, or they're growing up quite a bit from year to year. You typically see your biggest jump in antler growth from 2.5 to 3.5.

I certainly don't agree with the antlerless slaughter we had and I believe its getting a bit better now that they've slacked off on tags in many areas. But I can't agree with the antler restriction argument some have.