I've done a thread on this before, but I want to get into this discussion again with recent events. This isn't to take away from the tracking and recovery threads either, just a discussion on deer that get hit in a place that they SHOULD die. Hear me out for a sec...I have a pretty good understanding of anatomy and how mammals body function. Is it possible that sometimes, when a deer is hit high in the lung cavity, that the lung is currently deflated just a tad (in the act of breathing) and no structural damage is actually done to the lung tissue? The created hole would mess with the pressure gradient of course, but depending on the actual size of the entrance wound, could clot off and heal (especially if the deer beds down) on its own so the deer survives? Thoughts?
Well, you know more about anatomy than most of us, but I think complete deflation of the lungs can only be accomplished through voluntary efforts. That is to say, during normal respiration, (at least during periods of low activity) the lungs still are (guessing) 80% inflated during exhalation. Consider, how well a person could inflate a balloon using an at rest exhaled breath and you get a feel for what I'm saying. Perhaps the existence of a large void in deer is more a function of quadruped anatomical configuration, vis-a-vis lung deflation. Best guess, FWIW.
I understand your thoughts but have one question. The deflation would not necessarily be at the top of the lung area. The diaphragm is actually causing the inflation/deflation so the actual chest cavity would still be filled with lung. Correct? I don't understand how the chest cavity would change in size due to breathing. The affect of a hit farther back rather than high may be influenced by it. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
I get what your saying, the lungs don't exactly "drop", but there is movement. For example, at times...there may be a small gap at the top of the cavity. The cavity itself stays the same size...but the diaphragm will cause movement of the actual lung tissue. Or...maybe if you hit the deer high enough, it doesn't do enough structural damage to the lung in order to kill it. I would think with how vascular it gets a hemothorax would be inevitable though... A dull Broadhead would easily compound this problem.
I think it's entirely possible on a one lung hit, albeit extremely rare. I think even if you partially deflated two lungs the heavier breathing action would not allow the holes to seal and eventually heal, though. I would also worry about fluid (blood) that may be trapped in the lung from the wound. There are many stories of one lunged elk living with little or no hinderance. As far as the void. Doesn't exist.
Being a respiratory therapist I feel compelled to chime in on this. Now if a deer has a pleural space surrounding their lungs as a human does, then you would expect the deer would suffer a pneumothorax or hemothorax. If either of these two things happen it doesn't necessarily mean it will die. A human can survive these injuries and not die. They will be in a lot of pain and be in a precarious position for a while but they can survive. You would expect the lung to deflate with an arrow wound but the big difference in a human lung and a deer lung is a human doesn't have all that hide that could effectively plug the wound. Of course we must remember that deer shot with a broadhead die from hemorrhage and since there's such a huge blood supply to the lungs, if you cut those pulmonary arteries there's not much chance of survival. Blessings..........Pastorjim
I'm glad you chimed in Jim, we're on the same train of thought with the hemo/pneumothorax talk. What I'm basically looking for is the explanation of how these deer do not die (the ones you can prove with trail cam evidence)...
This has been hashed out more the sasquatch and proven an urban myth. There is no void under the spine and above the lungs. One hit lung and survive? Sure. I just got off stand and once again saw a yearling doe my nephew center punched the guts on film 1 month ago. She is doing fine.
Unless the deer has a reeaally bad case of pleurisy there isn't enough room to get a broadhead between the ribcage and the lungs. The action of the diaphragm does NOT suck the lungs away from the top of the ribcage.
So do you think you can put a broadhead into the top of the lung cavity and do minimal damage to the lungs? Is this simply the explanation?
No. Look at the shape of the ribcage. It's curved up like the top of a cartoon heart. Not only would you slice through the top of one (and likely both lungs) with a high hit, but you'd also very, very likely sever the dorsal aorta which runs right under the bottom of the vertebral bodies.
Most 'void' hits are simply above the chest cavity. Through the spinous processes and maybe the top of a scapula or two.
I agree with Oly! My big 8 is still kicking and sparing with another 8 this morning at 80 yards. I hope to catch up with him soon since gun season is two weeks away. This sucker is going to be playing chess with me.
A long time ago on another forum this came up and somebody posted this picture of a deer carcass split in half that helped a lot. Since I know very little about it I will just post the pic.
Looks to me like the void is above the spine and isn't a void so much as it is an absence of vital organs. Could possibly slide one under the spine and not hit lung but that is a slim chance.
Accounting for the fact that it's laid sideways and not standing properly, I'd have to agree that "the void" is ABOVE the spine. There's not enough room under the spine to not hit lung cavity (even with a small fixed blade head). I wonder how much plueral space is located near the spine in the upper right area of the cavity when the lungs are still in...
I was wondering the same thing . I cant imagine they fill the entire chest area but still I don't see how you could get an arrow below the spine and above the lungs from looking at that picture.
If a deer is exhaling or breathing out, then the lungs will deflate and go in the direction of the head. So if you hit the deer in the "void" you will not cause a pneumothorax (hole in the lung) or a hemothorax (blood filled lungs), so it is possible to hit a deer in a area where the lungs should be, but are not due to exhaling. Odds are it would cause trauma by the ribs breaking and that will send bits and pieces of bone into the lungs; which would cause death.