Please ensure Javascript is enabled for purposes of website accessibility

"The Void"

Discussion in 'Bowhunting Talk' started by Siman/OH, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. Siman/OH

    Siman/OH Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Posts:
    16,713
    Likes Received:
    1,963
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ohio
    I've done a thread on this before, but I want to get into this discussion again with recent events.

    This isn't to take away from the tracking and recovery threads either, just a discussion on deer that get hit in a place that they SHOULD die.

    Hear me out for a sec...I have a pretty good understanding of anatomy and how mammals body function. Is it possible that sometimes, when a deer is hit high in the lung cavity, that the lung is currently deflated just a tad (in the act of breathing) and no structural damage is actually done to the lung tissue? The created hole would mess with the pressure gradient of course, but depending on the actual size of the entrance wound, could clot off and heal (especially if the deer beds down) on its own so the deer survives?

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  2. Treestandsniper

    Treestandsniper Die Hard Bowhunter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2012
    Posts:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gurnee Il
    Well, you know more about anatomy than most of us, but I think complete deflation of the lungs can only be accomplished through voluntary efforts. That is to say, during normal respiration, (at least during periods of low activity) the lungs still are (guessing) 80% inflated during exhalation. Consider, how well a person could inflate a balloon using an at rest exhaled breath and you get a feel for what I'm saying.

    Perhaps the existence of a large void in deer is more a function of quadruped anatomical configuration, vis-a-vis lung deflation. Best guess, FWIW.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  3. The Old Man

    The Old Man Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Posts:
    3,255
    Likes Received:
    5,981
    Dislikes Received:
    5
    Location:
    North Dakota
    I understand your thoughts but have one question. The deflation would not necessarily be at the top of the lung area. The diaphragm is actually causing the inflation/deflation so the actual chest cavity would still be filled with lung. Correct? I don't understand how the chest cavity would change in size due to breathing. The affect of a hit farther back rather than high may be influenced by it. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
     
  4. Siman/OH

    Siman/OH Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Posts:
    16,713
    Likes Received:
    1,963
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ohio
    I get what your saying, the lungs don't exactly "drop", but there is movement. For example, at times...there may be a small gap at the top of the cavity. The cavity itself stays the same size...but the diaphragm will cause movement of the actual lung tissue.

    Or...maybe if you hit the deer high enough, it doesn't do enough structural damage to the lung in order to kill it. I would think with how vascular it gets a hemothorax would be inevitable though...

    A dull Broadhead would easily compound this problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  5. Backcountry

    Backcountry Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Posts:
    4,265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bitteroot Valley
    I think it's entirely possible on a one lung hit, albeit extremely rare. I think even if you partially deflated two lungs the heavier breathing action would not allow the holes to seal and eventually heal, though. I would also worry about fluid (blood) that may be trapped in the lung from the wound. There are many stories of one lunged elk living with little or no hinderance.

    As far as the void. Doesn't exist.
     
  6. pastorjim08

    pastorjim08 Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Posts:
    12,383
    Likes Received:
    15,779
    Dislikes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Indiana
    Being a respiratory therapist I feel compelled to chime in on this. Now if a deer has a pleural space surrounding their lungs as a human does, then you would expect the deer would suffer a pneumothorax or hemothorax. If either of these two things happen it doesn't necessarily mean it will die. A human can survive these injuries and not die. They will be in a lot of pain and be in a precarious position for a while but they can survive. You would expect the lung to deflate with an arrow wound but the big difference in a human lung and a deer lung is a human doesn't have all that hide that could effectively plug the wound. Of course we must remember that deer shot with a broadhead die from hemorrhage and since there's such a huge blood supply to the lungs, if you cut those pulmonary arteries there's not much chance of survival.

    Blessings..........Pastorjim
     
  7. Siman/OH

    Siman/OH Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Posts:
    16,713
    Likes Received:
    1,963
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm glad you chimed in Jim, we're on the same train of thought with the hemo/pneumothorax talk. What I'm basically looking for is the explanation of how these deer do not die (the ones you can prove with trail cam evidence)...
     
  8. Siman/OH

    Siman/OH Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Posts:
    16,713
    Likes Received:
    1,963
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ohio
    Something exist.

    I call that the void.
     
  9. Oly44

    Oly44 Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2011
    Posts:
    5,659
    Likes Received:
    499
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Freeport, IL
    We can just have Dawg check out the big 8 after he gets another shot at him!
     
  10. PSEREVENGEMAN

    PSEREVENGEMAN Die Hard Bowhunter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Posts:
    1,010
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    This has been hashed out more the sasquatch and proven an urban myth. There is no void under the spine and above the lungs. One hit lung and survive? Sure. I just got off stand and once again saw a yearling doe my nephew center punched the guts on film 1 month ago. She is doing fine.
     
  11. Christine

    Christine Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Posts:
    7,013
    Likes Received:
    399
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Central Utah, baby!!
    Unless the deer has a reeaally bad case of pleurisy there isn't enough room to get a broadhead between the ribcage and the lungs.

    The action of the diaphragm does NOT suck the lungs away from the top of the ribcage.
     
  12. Siman/OH

    Siman/OH Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Posts:
    16,713
    Likes Received:
    1,963
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ohio
    So do you think you can put a broadhead into the top of the lung cavity and do minimal damage to the lungs? Is this simply the explanation?
     
  13. Christine

    Christine Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Posts:
    7,013
    Likes Received:
    399
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Central Utah, baby!!
    No. Look at the shape of the ribcage. It's curved up like the top of a cartoon heart. Not only would you slice through the top of one (and likely both lungs) with a high hit, but you'd also very, very likely sever the dorsal aorta which runs right under the bottom of the vertebral bodies.
     
  14. Christine

    Christine Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Posts:
    7,013
    Likes Received:
    399
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Central Utah, baby!!
    Most 'void' hits are simply above the chest cavity. Through the spinous processes and maybe the top of a scapula or two.
     
  15. dawg007

    dawg007 Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Posts:
    4,604
    Likes Received:
    729
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Central, IL
    I agree with Oly! My big 8 is still kicking and sparing with another 8 this morning at 80 yards. I hope to catch up with him soon since gun season is two weeks away. This sucker is going to be playing chess with me.
     
  16. Landon II

    Landon II Weekend Warrior

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Posts:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    A long time ago on another forum this came up and somebody posted this picture of a deer carcass split in half that helped a lot. Since I know very little about it I will just post the pic.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. The Old Man

    The Old Man Grizzled Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Posts:
    3,255
    Likes Received:
    5,981
    Dislikes Received:
    5
    Location:
    North Dakota
    Looks to me like the void is above the spine and isn't a void so much as it is an absence of vital organs. Could possibly slide one under the spine and not hit lung but that is a slim chance.
     
  18. Siman/OH

    Siman/OH Legendary Woodsman

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Posts:
    16,713
    Likes Received:
    1,963
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Ohio
    Accounting for the fact that it's laid sideways and not standing properly, I'd have to agree that "the void" is ABOVE the spine. There's not enough room under the spine to not hit lung cavity (even with a small fixed blade head).

    I wonder how much plueral space is located near the spine in the upper right area of the cavity when the lungs are still in...
     
  19. Landon II

    Landon II Weekend Warrior

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Posts:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    I was wondering the same thing . I cant imagine they fill the entire chest area but still I don't see how you could get an arrow below the spine and above the lungs from looking at that picture.
     
  20. N.E.Wisconsinhunter

    N.E.Wisconsinhunter Newb

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Posts:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Oconto County, Wisconsin
    58_6272003234051.jpg

    If a deer is exhaling or breathing out, then the lungs will deflate and go in the direction of the head. So if you hit the deer in the "void" you will not cause a pneumothorax (hole in the lung) or a hemothorax (blood filled lungs), so it is possible to hit a deer in a area where the lungs should be, but are not due to exhaling. Odds are it would cause trauma by the ribs breaking and that will send bits and pieces of bone into the lungs; which would cause death.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013

Share This Page