I'm curious to hear everyone else's thoughts on this. It doesn't really matter where you go, you'll often times hear the same thing about how everyone wants the older, more mature bucks to breed the does because that will increase the genetics of their hunt able herd. I'm certainly not a biologist, but if genes don't change in a buck from the time he is born until the time he dies, why does it matter how old he is when he breeds? A 4.5yr old deer has the same genetics that he did when he was 2.5. So, if he's passing on the same genes every year, why are so many people so concerned about the how old of a buck is fathering the fawns? I hear the phrase, "he's a good breeder buck," all the time about mature deer… the truth is, he was passing the same genes down for every doe he's ever bred, regardless of age. Am I missing something here? With that said, I totally understand cull/managment deer, but that's a totally different conversation. Thoughts?
I mimic your thoughts. I've never understood this either. I've also never understood culling bucks- does control just as much as the antler genetics if not more than the buck, and how are you going to manage the does for racks? But as you said, different topic altogether.
You can say the same about that injured buck with one normal antler and one freak messed up side, his genetics are the same pre injury as they are post injury. Deer don't have separate genetic code for their right antler and left antler, any grossly unequal set of antlers is not genetic caused.
Yeah my dad always has that argument. He hates seeing big 4 year and older bucks get killed before rut. He says well they didn't get to breed. Well they did get to breed the 3-5 prior years and probably have plenty of youngsters running around. Then he comes with the argument that young deer don't breed. This is especially frustrating when he himself has seen spikes and 2.5 year old deer breed does in woods we know for a fact have mature bucks running around in them. Personally I don't think it matters how old a buck is when they breed. Does on the other hand I think probably makes a bit of difference. I'm not certain a 1 year old doe is physically capable of providing the proper nutrition to the same extent and level of say a 3-6 year old doe thats in her prime.
The genetics of buck do not change as they get older....but, you truly have no idea what his genetics potential is without some age.
Here is one other thing to consider: Many, if not most the larger(more mature) bucks we have on the property here for the bulk of the summer leave when the rut hits and new mature bucks move in. Happens every year...this actually goes for most all the bucks here except a few of the young ones. They seem to move only a couple miles and will be back in December but for the breeding period they are gone. This means that we never know what bucks are going to be breeding the resident does. I would however always prefer to shoot a spike or forkhorn over any 5-8pt of the same age because there is no doubt in my mind that small rack 1.5 year old holds more potential for a large rack than a spike does. For that matter I always want to shoot any spike and 3 pt bucks I see...they make for some tender table fare. IMO - if you want to have the chance to see a bigger buck in a couple years you just need to be sure you don't shoot that one this year...anyway it is a crapshoot with all the outside factors you cannot control.
I've thought about this a lot and was thinking about it again just yesterday thinking of posting the exact same thread on here sometime today. I agree about 95%, the only two things I would add is that the older larger bucks are already showing their potential for those that are into intensive management and two, they also pretty much have their pick of the does they wish to breed. The younger bucks pick up whatever they can pop on the run. There's a lot to be said about natural selection and the instinct inherent in a species to breed for adaptability, vigor and intelligence. A big mature deer probably got that way by being smart and adaptable, underlying traits that aren't apparent but are necissary to long term improvment of the species. The longer they are around to spread those underlying traits, the more of those traits are spread throughout the region.
Maybe they're concerned about the age of the buck because at 4.5 yrs as opposed to 2.5 yrs. he's basically done growing. At 4.5 he's giving you a better look at what his true genetics look like. For example, at 10 yrs old we might have a hard time determining who would be the better MLB pitcher out of 2 or 3 10 yr old boys. But at 16, there'd be no question. I was the largest baby my mom had. Now I'm the smallest. The Girl that was the prettiest in Junior high school very often isn't the prettiest in High School. Maybe they're using that as a way to get a better look at a growing buck?
I've been reading about this quite a bit and there is a lot of uncertainty to this thought. The bigger bucks certainly will beat the little bucks out for breeding. The school of thought that the bigger bucks run around and breed all the does they want is pretty much gone. Unlike Elk that round up a harem and the biggest/meanest bull breeds the whole harem, whitetails find a hot doe and then spend as much as 2-4 days with a single doe during the courting/breeding process. This means that there are lots of other does in heat at that same time that are being bred by whichever bucks aren't in tow of a doe coming into estrous. The big bucks don't necessarily choose which ones they "want" to breed, they breed the first one they catch.
So why not stop passing on the younger bucks and let's allow the big guys to walk? Take the young better eating guys... that's what I do... whether I plan it that way or not.
I also read an article that stated that Big bucks aren't running around chasing does during the rut as much as we might think. That the fact of the matter is that the younger bucks who are running around like their heads are on fire are doing the majority of the breeding. Yes, a bigger buck can/will back them down from a doe, but very often the bigger buck just doesn't give a hoot. So the younger bucks just cover more territory by sheer excitement! (Note: I did the same thing when I was a young buck) By contrast, Older bucks are still doing the same things that they're doing the majority of the year. Laying around and eating. They'll find a doe to lay up with for a few days, then go back to laying down. When the mood strikes, they do it again. Young bucks go for quantity Big Bucks go for quality Sounds about right to me. Some things never change.
Somewhere just in the last few weeks I seen a post about a radio collared buck killed 25 miles from home so how can you possibly cull or control deer that has legs and will travel. We all see deer on are game cams that only show up once a season so there is no way to control what deer breeds the local heard as much as we think we would like to.
I think you're on the right track with your comparison, but I'd say in some instances, even at 16, there are plenty of kids who have yet to reach their potential.
True younger bucks with time will show their "potential" and true younger bucks breed, but the "best" does will most often select the best "bucks". These are does that have had multi year successes with fawning and raising their fawns as well as multiple births. These are the type of doe that we should avoid killing. There is another variable that has not been considered, that being female preference. I am by no means an expert on females but I do know they select "mates" based on pre-set genetic characteristics, and they do so in the deer population too. Larger, older does know a larger stronger male will generate stronger offspring that are more likely to survive. Breeding, and rearing young is a huge investment in time and energy... if a deer can improve success in their offspring, they will and this is true in any species. It is a function of natural order and natural selection. Therefore, it is probably best to take a variety of deer in terms of age and gender except for the older more experienced does if population is a concern. T T
I'm saying basically the same thing you just said...a big buck is able to choose a doe he finds suitable and breed her because he can and will beat out the younger bucks. There may be something in the reasoning behind wht exactly a more mature buck will lockdown with a particular doe and wait for her to cycle through. That's what I meant by saying they can choose whatever doe they want. I have also seen mature bucks actively keeping a harem late in the season like now. I wouldn't say they are completely successful at it but it does happen.
Great points. More and more research is suggesting that yearling and 2.5 bucks breed a significant amount of available does during their first estrus of the season. This is being confirmed even in areas that have "good" buck to doe ratios and higher percentages of mature bucks. Realistically with most does coming into estrus at relatively the same time there is going to be some over flow that will be bred by younger bucks. Great post.
