I have to say this is a very respectful forum. My little buck from two weeks ago received several congratulatory posts. Other places it would have been laughed off of the forum. I love this forum.
I don't see that going on here but sure do on some other forums. I've seen posts where kids catch hell for shooting basket racks?? The hunting world has gone antler crazy. I know a lot of guys who say they will only shoot a deer that scores x inches and then they complain about eating tag soup. Its like these guys think they will stick a big deer and end up being the next big hunting celeb? Some have never killed a buck to my knowledge. I have more respect for a guy who consistently puts meat in the freezer, enjoys the hunt, helps others, is encouraging to others, and isn't a p&&ck about shooting a big deer.
From what I've noticed, aging deer online is pretty inaccurate anyways. I can show you a picture of a deer and will get completely different responses. What looks like a 2 year old in Iowa looks like a 4 year old here in CT. I think the "age of aging" is hurting hunters the areas that don't produce a lot of big 140"+ deer. We see midwestern hunters shoot these farm grazing monsters on TV and guys are somehow left feeling inferior with they're 125" 4 year old that has scrounged for browse and snow-covered acorns all winter. I think people just need to look at their areas more realistically. Part of it is quality deer management, sure. I firmly believe and practice the theory that you can't shoot big old bucks if you shoot all the young bucks. But at the same time you can't expect deer from different parts of the country to look the same. Be proud of your 110" buck because in many areas that's a quality rack based on the environment it came from.
You put the time in, shoot what makes you happy. People hunt for different reasons, and different things fill them with a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction. If shooting a small buck is good for you go for it and be proud of the effort and accomplishment, if you are more of a horn hunter then that's great. Different strokes for different folks.
I have never shot a deer I wasn't proud of. Maybe some day I'll shoot one worthy of Bill Jordan's standards but until then, I'll take what the Lord provides and be thankful.
QDM is more than just passing young bucks, it's also managing gender ratios and population numbers to better match the local conditions. It's managing limiting factors that are inherently restrictive to poor health conditions that create those small bucks that have to scrounge for food. People need to be careful that they don't just attribute QDM with age restriction. Anyone that is actively passing young bucks is not necessarily practicing QDM but just a portion of it. It's a system that has to be comprehensive, and understood to be so.
There used to be a time (maybe thirty years ago) when the popular bowhunting magazines frequently had articles that talked about shooting a "fat little forky" or a spike, or deer in general. The attitudes were different than today. The articles were more about the techniques and tactics and less about the animal's size or age. Hunting videos were few and far between, and the internet didn't exist. Hunting was not so commercialized, and to take a buck (any buck) with archery equipment was all I wanted to do. In my part of the world, I didn't know anyone who ever passed up bucks. It was difficult to get any shot, and all bucks were trophies- even spikes. Of course, with that there were almost no older age class deer being seen or taken. Things are certainly very different now, and there are more older bucks around. Many people are practicing QDM, and I think for all the good it's done for the age structure of the herd, it has the unfortunate baggage for many that smaller deer are no longer "trophies" and shouldn't be killed. Young kids in the sport are conflicted, and should not be discouraged from taking younger deer. Legal kills should be celebrated, or we may not have many hunters thirty years down the road.
I respectfully disagree, tell me a kid that shot his/her first P&Y mature buck isn't going to be hooked on it for life. In the world without QDM that you mentioned, how likely was that to happen? Priorities change but the results are still there. Very few discourage youth to abide by adult restrictions and I don't recall anyone around here not celebrating a legal harvested animal.
I guess I'm not 100% sure of what you are disagreeing with. I don't know of any kids who've taken a P&Y whitetail, nor many adults. Of course they'd be hooked for life, but are you suggesting that a kid who has taken none or very few deer ever, should be told to pass up non P&Y animals? Where I live, 125 inch bucks are usually 4 1/2 years old or older, and most hunters won't see one in a season or more, let alone a young hunter. In general I love what QDM has been and is doing- the results are obvious. I practice it myself. But I won't ever tell my kids that they can't shoot a legal 80" six point if they choose.
This is the portion I disagreed with. Creating a mindset where smaller, younger bucks are no longer trophies is not unfortunate, it's desirable. If they want to kill a deer that badly then the focus should be on meeting management needs and balancing ratios. Young bucks can be taken if bucks are too thick, otherwise more typically...does should be taken. Young kids being conflicted...if they want to get into the sport or if we want them to get into the sport they should be encouraged to not shoot young deer and taught to stick to fundamentally sound management. Sure, exceptions can be made when it comes to young hunters with no harvests under their belts but they certainly should not be encouraged to shoot the first button buck that comes into sight either. That's potentially teaching bad habits and instant gratification as well as not doing any favors in teaching patience. That's a pretty loose interpretation of what I'm saying. I'm saying that just because a hunter is young and inexperienced is not a good reason to allow them to ignore QDM principles and shoot young deer, especially bucks. Exceptions would be if the buck portion of the ratio needs to be managed lower. What I am suggesting is by encouraging QDM age restrictions that herds will improve to the point where it will not be uncommon for even youth hunters to harvest P&Y bucks, in turn that will nullify your earlier statement about young hunters being conflicted and not having many hunters in 30 years. No idea where you live but that's unimportant anyway. For a first deer, I can see allowing them to shoot a young 80" buck, after that you are not doing them any favors at all unless management determines buck ratios need to trend down. If it's a 3.5 year old 80" six point then it should be taken out. It's all about age structure, you have confused age with antler score several times in your posts so I'll cut straight to the point. All hunters should be encouraged to let the young deer walk if one believes in QDM principles at all. (Except for managing ratios or population) Mature deer, I don't care what their antler score, are targets. Until these principles are engrained and strictly practiced for a few years...you will never know any youth hunters that harvest P&Y deer....that's the point.
QDM is voluntary. Good or bad, your opinions are just that- opinions. You can state things as if they are fact all day long. That doesn't mean kids or adults have to abide by your beliefs until such beliefs are law. If a young hunter wants to practice QDM, then great. But if it takes several years for them to arrive at that conclusion, then also fine. Again, QDM has benefits, but your all or none attitude is exactly the problem. Not practicing QDM, despite what you think or say, is perfectly ok within legal practices. I have not confused age and score. I have referenced "older bucks", regardless of score. You mentioned P&Y bucks. You're apparently upset that I said "unfortunate baggage", which still exists. It is unfortunate that QDM through the years has created a mindset that makes a kid second guess the validity of a buck kill, no matter the age or score. Nothing is perfect, QDM included. It has its benefits, and drawbacks. It is still in its infancy, and will no doubt continue to evolve. In the meantime, I will celebrate my kids' deer harvests regardless of age, size or score.
No logical hunter can argue the age structure and herd health benefits of practicing QDM. If one doesn't want to it is true it is 100% legal and fine to do so, however it is those hunters than in my opinion should never be allowed to speak ill of the age structure or use terms or excuses for shooting young deer like "neighbor would have if I didn't" or "there just isn't many big ones" or any other coined phrase used. I believe in attempting to achieve QDM practices each year...granted I have a hard struggle passing great 3.5 year olds or shoot the rare stud 2.5 but yearlings are definitely passers, 1 1/2s same thing and it is amazing how many returning deer I've seen from year's prior that I used to think "would surely be killed by "x" hunter down the way".
With time comes knowledge. As time has passed and deer hunting has matured into what it has today, the entire hunting community has learned and evolved. We understand how hunting can affect age structure of a herd. We understand how shooting small, immature bucks will greatly reduce the possibilities of bucks reaching maturity. Deer hunting is an individual sport, with ones own rules and guidelines as to what is considered a trophy, but on the other hand the actions of others affects the whole hunting community. I'm all for a kid dropping the first buck they see, be it a yearling spike or a P&Y bruiser. Same goes for a new hunter, but eventually I would hope that people can move away from that "brown it's down" mentality. Lets also be honest, there's not a whole lot of challenge in killing a yearling, or 1 1/2 year old deer. They are still curious and dumb. Once they get to 2 1/2 they get a little smarter and harder to hunt, but they are still pretty dumb. Once they get to 3 1/2 they have started to figure it out and become much tougher to hunt. After 4 1/2, they are real tough to hunt. That's why killing a mature buck is such an accomplishment. I'll never critisize someone for shooting what makes them happy, I will just hope that one day a yearling isn't what makes them happy.
We're having a discussion, in this discussion...I'm stating my opinions as I apply to my land, in my situation as well as my ideology that my land rules are based on. I certainly have no desire to make rules (or law) for everyone and their land and situation. For me and any hunters on my land...my opinions and "facts" are law and hunters, kids and adults alike, will be guided by and abide by the rules or they well may not be hunting there any longer. The thing is they will abide by my rules because I have the best hunting around the area, proving my opinions/rules provide results. As far as what kids "want" to do"...I assume people don't generally let their kids do whatever they "want" to do in all aspects of life....at least I would hope not. We're the adults, as such, it's up to us to set the standards and teach/pass along knowledge. No rule is without exception and I think I already stated I believe kids and beginning hunters can be exceptions. However I personally don't think exceptions extend past a first deer. Past the first deer, does can be taken otherwise the entire system of management is futile. At some point a transition has to be made from exception to supported practices, otherwise one is simply promoting sport killing for the sake of killing. Again, yes these are my opinions...that's what forums are for, sharing of opinions. It's how we learn from others or we can choose to ignore opinions we don't agree with. Sure, it's perfectly ok. I certainly don't make any universal rules. I may be a big shot but I have yet to figure out how to become omnipotent. Joking aside, a person either believes in a practice or they don't. Everyone has different thresholds of how intensely they want to adhere to practices. Each person has to weigh for themselves importance of their own goals and beliefs and priorities because as you say QDM as well as any management practice is voluntary. I do however fail to see how my attitude is creating a "problem" for anyone else and I think that's where my major disagreement has been with you from the start since this was the implied ideal in the initial post. I used P&Y bucks as a gauge in reference to overall herd health improvement. Any deer in any part of the country has the potential to produce 125" of antler given nutrition and age to maturity. Of course it makes a kid, or anyone else, second guess the validity of a buck kill (or any kill)...that's what parameters are intended to do. Management is there to provide a means to a goal, either one believes in it and practices it or they do not. They are responsible for themselves, not secondary implications someone else imagines may or may not exist. "Unfortunate" is a matter of one's point of view. It will be viewed as unfortunate for those that want an excuse to kill just for the sake of putting down deer, it'll be viewed as the opposite for those that enjoy realizing a goal of better age structure and all the benefits that come with. Good for you, I wish you many years of being happy about killing deer with your kids. Hopefully others in your area at some point will begin to adopt QDM so that you can no longer complain about crappy age structure in your area of focus.
Some of us couldn't care less about QDM or age structure or mature bucks because that just doesn't ever come into play on most of the land we hunt. We hunt farm land, public land, or leases that come and go where many herds are overpopulated with skewed buck to doe ratios. The amount of time, resources, cooperation, etc. it would take to QDM land like this is lengthy at best. Some of us are just ok with hunting it. imo What many QDM folks overlook a lot of times is the fact that they are in fact the minority. Most hunters fall into the first group. Sure we'd all love to have guaranteed access to good land for a long period of time with cooperating neighbors and the ability to work it but realistically most don't live that fairytale. Many(me) just aren't willing to invest that much time and money into hunting because they likely have lots of other stuff going on in life that require their limited time and money. I'm not faulting QDM guys or folks that have and do dedicate a large amount of resources to hunting deer I'm just saying the average hunter isn't willing or able to make that kind of investment and that's ok too. It will not lead to the downfall of hunting. One thing however that would be refreshing would be if more QDM guys would simply say they mainly just want to kill trophy bucks instead of trying to impress me with their herd structure and deer management "knowledge". Just sayin....but whatever you're doing this season good luck! **edited-Not directed directly at anyone here and I know most QDM guys I've met personally were very passionate and knowledgeable but sometimes a vibe is present where it seems as if they are looking down their noses if you're not doing things a certain way. Go on any hunting FB page that has a lot of members and if someone posts a deer that is little or a young buck it is absolutley guaranteed the comments section will take on a life of it's own and the QDM topic will be all up in the mix. Just say congrats and move on or say nothing is my theory but anywho...that's probably another topic.
I say also shoot what makes you happy because most of the time if you hunt small tracts someone next door will shoot it if you dont. I've seen great results with age management but here is the thing you need land and your land owner/leases around need to all agree on working together, but if not its pointless because deer move alot. Honestly i only shoot 3 years old or better and i'm happy with whatever set of horns i get. As long as i feed my family i'm happy.
NEW I personally acknowledge and agree with a lot of what your saying but the sad fact is it isn't expensive at all to practice QDM and actually can be free. All it takes is selection in what you harvest. Yes it takes time, energy and money to invest in food plots, tools to do food plots, tons of time to implement them and many other habitat improvements....but in the end none of that matters it is all whether or not you shoot a young adolescent male deer or not/and if you shoot the proper amount of does. I am by far from a trophy hunter....if I was I wouldn't have harvested my 2.5/3.5 (never did confirm age 100%) buck from last year which barely cleared 120. I strive to simply shoot mature bucks, inches usually coincide but not always...amazingly more than guys think. It's true in the end QDM guys/gals are still the minority however I've seen what just a few property owners in an area choosing to not shoot adolescent bucks can do for the localized deer herd buck age structure...I'd be amazed if we could get just 50% of everyone in the localize area on board what could occur...
The first buck I shot with a bow was a P&Y (in 1990), that was 24 yeas ago when I was 17. I passed 20+ small bucks and shot several doe over a 4 year period to kill him. Guess I started out hunting practicing QDM back in the mid 80's without even knowing it. I liked big bucks and even as a dumb kid from Ky, common sense told me that if I shot a small buck that my only buck tag was used and that buck wasn't getting any bigger. A doe or two always worked out great for the freezer...and was more of a challenge then killing a young buck aanyway.
