Not saying there's anything wrong with a 2 blade fixed head, but IMO a 3 or 4 blade fixed head does just as much if not more damage. I see zero need to switch away from the Muzzy he's using. Pushing someone into a 500 grain arrow setup with a fixed 2 blade head for whitetails seems like a bit of overkill. Lots of deer out there dying from setups that aren't built to take down a moose. I'm shooting my Triax at 29" and about 65-66 lbs so a very similar setup and I'm using 350 spine arrows with brass inserts up front without any issues. They tuned perfect and fly great. My total finished arrow weight is 440 grains and I've passed clean through every animal I've shot with this setup. For reference I'm shooting Black Eagle Rampage 350's with 50 grain brass HIT inserts up front and a 100 grain broadhead.
Well it's only Overkill until you hit bone. Since large animals are made of large bones I don't consider it Overkill at all. In fact I don't see the burden in having a heavy Arrow through ribs and lungs either. What would be the problem in having a 500 grain arrow with a 2 blade head (which promotes penetrate)?
The 340 on the bemas bowhunters is the spine, not the weight. Seems you have spine confused with weight.
You could keep your hundred grain heads,and just use a heavy insert. If you use gold tip arrows,you can get 50 and 100 grain inserts. Also they have the f.a.c.t system were you can screw in weights to there inserts. Black eagle arrows also have a similar system to.
100/25 grain heads have thin blades and weaker ferrules. Better off getting the weight out if the head than a weight system. If you still want more then add insert weights. Structural integrity is very important.
Here's an excerpt from a paper I wrote about heavy arrows... #2 TRAJECTORY Flat versus arced. Although it is perceived as being easier on one’s mind to shoot a flatter arc it is only relative to what a person believes. Once you have submitted the arc of your arrow to your subconscious mind, whatever that arc may be, it is no longer relevant. With modern equipment particularly, we’re talking about a difference in drop of only a few inches between a light 350 grain arrow and a heavier 650 grain arrow. Let’s look at ballistics data: A 650 grain arrow shot at 70 lbs draw out of a given bow has an aim point of 10.39 inches to hit a 40 yard Point of Impact (POI). KE=75.6 lb-ft, momentum= 0.662 slug-feet/second (note that both the kinetic energy and the momentum of an arrow increases out of the same bow as the arrow mass increases) That same bow with a 350 grain arrow has an aim point of 5.19 inches at 40 yards. KE=69 lb-ft, momentum= 0.465 slug-feet/second That’s only a difference of 5.2 inches. To make up the difference in your sight pin that’s 0.122 inches of pin gap or 3.1 millimetres. Which means whatever your pins are set at before the arrow weight change, there won’t be a significant adjustment afterwards.
100 grain heads without inserts kill plenty of deer every year. I like heavier arrows myself and I've killed them with 600 grain arrows out my broadheads, but I'm not getting all worked up over broadhead weight anymore. A 430 to 450 grain arrow shot at a whitetail deer is more than enough....even with a "wimpy" 100 grain head. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
You can stop right there. When it comes to bowhunting there is no such thing as "only" a few inches. Those few inches - 5 in your example - is the difference between a miss and a wound, a wound and a clean kill, etc. At 40 yards with a moving (ducking) target, those 5 inches mean the world to the outcome of the story. I'm certainly not against heavy arrows as I'd much rather see people err on the side of too much weight than not enough. However, I believe the sweet spot that is a great balance between both speed (flat trajectory) and weight (momentum/penetration) is going to be 425-475 grains for most bowhunters. I believe the countless animals who have died to these setups will attest that they're more than sufficient to get the job done quickly and cleanly.
@plc613 - can we get a little background on your bowhunting experience/history? I see you have roughly 100 posts on the site and virtually all of them are on topics addressing arrow weight, FOC and the like. Seems like a topic you're pretty passionate about. So tell us a little more about yourself. I think it's always important to have some context on who we're talking with when we have these discussions.
Your comment is out of context. I never mentioned anything about missing. I'm merely referring to perspective of one trajectory vs another. You asked who I am? Not that much to say other than a guy that's been very passionate about bowhunting and archery in general since I was a young boy. I'm Canadian. I've had formal Olympic style training from about 7 or 8 till I was 16 and started hunting when I was 12(rifle). If you don't count small game, I started bowhunting whitetail when I was about 16 but to me, the small game counts to. The amount of times I got on a deer and Drew back only to picture the arrow going through the vitals is countless. I had nothing but time back then. Truth be told, my Dad and his longtime buddy taught me everything I knew until I started taking matters into my own hands so to speak. I've done an insane amount of testing on arrow flight under all sorts of conditions. In the past ~5 years I've gone "all-in" with everything high momentum. Mainly because my experience in the field has shown me that for the most part light arrows even if shot precisely have a greater tendency to fail. And I don't like failure. It probably goes without saying I'm a perfectionist. I respect the whole compromise/middle ground mindset but it's not at all for me. Perhaps it would put everyone at ease knowing I have no problem with a guy choosing a 450gn arrow for most NA game? Nothing wrong with that. That was my arrow for at least 10 years. Where I come in is a guy asking for more. For the most part I work off Ashby's 12 penetration factors. Not because I read it in his reports but because shooting a bow at animals for 35+ years has taught me he's right. Anything else you want to know just ask.
100% agree with that. I also agree with Justin and VS that 430-450 grain TAW are 100% enough for whitetails. Just as a 30-30 is "plenty" of rifle for whitetails. As I've said I think on this thread and several others I am simply more comfortable having now moved to the 500gr club; just as I would be more comfortable taking a 30-06 into the woods rather than the completely adequate 30-30. But much more than 500gr TAW; and you start to get drastic drops in pin gaps/slider movement over 30 yards (as Justin alluded to.) Even pulling heavy poundage and pushing hot FPS, 600gr arrows start to drop several inches even at mid ranges and do so very quickly. I even get better penetration into foam with a 500gr arrow vs. a 600gr arrow at ranges to at least 30 yards. I doubt I could shoot further than 50 yards with 600gr arrows. My Spott Hogg sight window would bottom out and start hitting fletchings. With 500gr I can get out to about 80 with the pin dots, 110 or so using the bubble as a final horizontal plane. I am not saying I would shoot at a deer over 50 yards; but I am making the point that to even get close to 50 I would be cranking that hand wheel forever to move the slider enough to even consider it. And if using a standard multi-pin sight; with a 600gr shaft your gaps start to get HUGE after 25 yards. Long story short; "normal" weights achieved by "standard" out of the box components are fine. But more weight is better. Until it isn't. Where that sweet spot lies is completely dependent on the rest of your set up. The reason I thought we are being trolled is the OPs seeming inability to understand the difference between spine and weight despite 3-4 of us directly making that point and explaining the difference. For whitetails; broadhead weight means nothing. TAW (assuming decent FOC) is what counts. 100gr Solids, Iron Wills, DRTs, Muzzys, Magnus' and many many more are built like tanks from engineering perspectives that have little to do with their weight.
I agree that speed is not everything, but in a hunting scenario, a slow moving arrow can create issues as well. It's proven that a deer can easily drop 8-12" or more on the drop of a string. As you stretch out from 30 yards and beyond this becomes an issue with slower moving arrows. I want an arrow that gives me a happy medium between speed and KE. I'm shooting 29" draw, 70lbs. Roughly 29" Maxima Blu RZ arrows with a 150gr broadhead. 456.15 grains. I haven't Crono'd this exact setup but I would expect it to be around 290 to 295 fps.
I think part of the problem is not knowing who your audience is when we post answers to questions like this. Simplifed answers and generalizations work well for lot of bowhunters based on their skill sets, level of understanding and the amount they will bowhunt.
You have to consider how long it takes to first acknowledge the noise and then react and get to that 8-12 inches and weigh that against the flight time. More importantly, if you take the time to do the math on the flight time difference between say, 350 and 650 and compare that to the reaction time you may start to think it's less relevant. On the flip side, I take every effort possible to shoot at an animal as close as possible and while it is as unalert as possible. That combination typical means a less than 25 yard shot with no reaction at all. It has been my experience that the difference between one arrow and another with regards to arrow weight and flight time to be mostly moot in so far as encouraging the use of a lighter vs a heavier arrow and as far as making a kill or not. But that's just my experience. If people have lived through multiple experiences that showed them a flatter arrow made the difference under say, 40 yards even then great.
Then I would have to argue what's the point? I've had this discussion many times because of how I answer and mostly who I am. If all we can do is make blanket statements then isn't this whole forum pointless? Grab a "bow" and some hunting "arrows" and go hunting. Odds are you will make the kill if you practices enough.
The point sometimes is to actually help someone with an answer that is revalant, usable, understandable and easily applied by a the lay person who asked the question. Otherwise it's a whole lot of pontificating that leads to increased confusion of an already confused person.
Let me see if I am following. Your going explain to someone who through no fault of his own doesn't understand the difference between arrow weight and arrow spine, doesn't list any specifics of his set up. And from that baseline your going to explain him and convince him that he needs an arrow with a finshed weight of approximately 600 grains with an FOC of of about 20%, with most of the front weight coming from the 175 grain cut throat single bevel broadhead he should be using? And if by some miracle he understands the supposed need for that arrow to kill a lowly whitetail. He is going to drive down to Joe Blows pro shop. When he tells Joe what he wants, and then asks for the correct spine for his set up and gives Joe all that information. Joe is going to look at him like he has two heads and ask of he wants Rage or Muzzy those arrows. Some people need to be taught how to walk before they start running.
