Should Crossbows be Allowed During Archery Season?

Innovative Outdoorsman, I only want you to learn one thing from this conversation:

If you buy a bowhunting license and you adhere to the law, you are bowhunting and you are a bowhunter.

 

I will continue this course in an effort to educate you despite your desire not to learn. I will not give up on you. I think you have the capacity to take on abject thought and reason.

If you are using a crossbow under the authority of the license you bought in one state , that may only be correct for that specific location and not a universal truth since many states do not include crossbowing under actual bowhunting and the accomplishments of that person using the crossbow would not be recognized by the oldest and largest body that catalogs and records and accomplishments of actual bowhunters (P&Y) as well as being recognized by the Professional Bowhunters Society.

While every state and nation and organizing body recognizes human powered bows and their users as bowhunters at a universal level, that cannot be said for crossbowers. Those folks enjoy spotty usage of the term "bowhunter" but real bowhunters know this was done only for the sake of ease of regulation at a state level and that these for are in fact "crossbowers" that are hunting during the archery season and that they are NOT bowhunters.

That is the very heart of the matter. The universally accepted term. For human powered bow and arrow hunters, the universal term accepted by every single authority is "bowhunter"

For crossbow hunters, it not. You are not universally recognized as a bowhunter. You are however universally recognized as a crossbow hunter since that is what you are. Accept that. Own it, embrace what you are rather than trying to pretend to be something you are not. We get that its a very big deal to be known as a bowhunter but you have to actually be a bowhunter to earn that name. You cant use some other weapon and demand to be called a bowhunter.

This reminds of the gender confused folks demanding to be called one thing when they are something else or those posing as military and stolen valor. If one is a crossbower, be a proud crossbower, own it. We are not fooled by you calling yourself something else. All we are going to do is roll our eyes and laugh when you insist you are a bowhunter while you hunt with a crossbow.

Personally, I think the crossbower can and may well be a good guy and a good hunter. He is just not a bowhunter. He knows it so he looks silly and devalues his sport by pretending to be a bowhunter. The crossbower that heartily embraces what he does is a laudable chap. The crossbower demanding he be called a bowhunter comes off largely as pouty and part of an entitlement class of whiners that wants a term he has not earned. I'm certain you possess the capacity to let this self evident truth sink in and that your protests thus far (and certainly going forward) are for drama's sake alone.

 

you don't listen to mark levin by any chance do you? That is one of his token sayings.

 

I don't think the xbow industry does itself any favors by advertising their shoulder discharged, stored energy weapons as rifles that shoot 3 inch groups at 100 yards using tag lines that say

"the crossbow that thinks its a rifle"

If they really wanted to fool people and try to convince them that the crossbow could ever be viewed as the weapon of a bowhunter, this is the wrong way to run this scam.

This is part of the reason the bowhunting community knows full well that a crossbow is the tool of the crossbow hunter and not the tool of a bowhunter.

 

You were better off arguing about stored energy and shoulder fired weapons, if your definition of a bow is based upon what other organizations think then your definition is unstable and easily broken. There used to be a time when P&Y, The Professional Bowhunter Society and other prestigious organizations did not consider a compound bow to be a true bow, and their users therefore not real bowhunters. If the compound wasn't a real bowhunters weapon until some prestigous club begrudgingly put their seal of approval on it, then it is possible and therefore likely(if the current trend continues) that the crossbow will one day be considered a real bowhunters weapon.

The weakness of your argument lies in the fact that more and more states will continue to allow their use, the more liberal bowhunting organizations will (and already have) consider them to be legitimate and the dying group of elitists will eventually either cave as their memberships and contributions trickle out, or they will fade away, just as they have always done. And eventually the groups that are still standing will be the ones that caved in.

stick with pointing out the physical differences

 

think the heart of the confusion for some of the folks that want pretend the crossbower can assume the descriptor of “bowhunter” as we have seen on display here is that because some states allow the use of additional weapons type during their archery season that the crossbower can assume the name of “bowhunter” . Allow me again to dispel this folly. All that means is that in those states allows the bowhunter and the crossbower to buy the same tag rather having two diff tags for the two different weapons types is that they allow both “bowhunters” and “crossbowers” to buy a like tag. They make the mistake in thinking that (like magic) to turns a crossbower into a bowhunter. All those states did was allow both bowhunters and crossbowers to hunt the same season but make no mistake, those states have bowhunters and crossbowers. The crossbowers did not magically disappear.

Its very easy to demonstrate. If their state has a lesser weapons allowance (like my state does) that allows crossbowers and bowhunters to participate in their state’s firearms deer season along side gun hunters, these folks (if they had the desire to start applying intellectual honesty) would have to insist that bow users and crossbow users magically become gun hunters or that the gun users become bowhunters just because they can use a variety of weapons types in a particular season. All these states did was allow crossbowing at a time when bowhunting is taking place. One need only look at every one of those states regulations to see the specific laws that apply to bowhunters and those that apply to crossbowers. The crossbower did not disappear and become a bowhunter as some here desperately want to manufacture..

These same folks will have to demand that if at some point the Benjamin air rifle that shoots arrows is allowed in their archery season that those new weapons users are likewise “Bowhunters”


Sometimes all one has to do is illustrate absurdity with absurdity to get these people to finally see the light. That does not mean they wont dig their heels in because they are stubborn and don’t wish to admit defeat but we and they both know this matter is settled. That does not mean we wont continue to see them make weak attempts at convoluted points. Its entertaining when they do but let’s hope they do some stretches before further engaging in their mental gymnastics. Start with jumping jacks

As we will no doubt see going forward, they will try and ultimately fail. They seem more so to be trying to convince themselves because by now they know we cant be fooled. Stay tuned. I think we have only just begun to see their straw grasping.

 

Innovative Outdoorsman, I only want you to learn one thing from this conversation:

If you buy a bowhunting license and you adhere to the law, you are bowhunting and you are a bowhunter.

 

Well I know plenty of people who buy a license whether archery or rifle and head into the woods and there is no way I would classify them as Hunters.

 

As I just predicted above in my prior post. Now they think repetition equals correct.

After that post was so easily and soundly debunked the first time and every time afterwards, the poster exposes their empty quiver by simply reposting the failure.

I expect that empty quiver to be reached into over and over for lack of substance and as a way of "just making a post for the sake of making a post." When that is reposted again (an we know it will be) it will confirm the quiver of valid ideas was empty long ago.

 

All I know is I am a Diehard Bowhunter. It says so in my Avatar!

 

That is sound reasoning.

 

Hey, I am with you for the most part, but you are extremely arrogant in your arguments, a little more humility would be appreciated . No one will take you seriously if continue to act like an all knowing Sophomore.

Lets cover some facts

Fact #1 A Crossbow is not a compound bow, nor is it a recurve or a longbow.

Fact #2 A Compound is not a Recurve, nor is it a Longbow.

Fact #3 A Compound bow, while having a far different design than either a recurve or a longbow(relies on energy to be stored in the eccentrics rather than the limbs) it is still considered a bow.

Let us look at a crossbow now, a crossbow like the compound, stores energy in its cams(eccentrics) that energy is stored when the string(cable) is drawn back. The method of drawing back the cable does not define the weapon. If I rig up a winch on my compound, or if I create a locking mechanism for my recurve. That does not mean either of those bows cease to be a bow. They simply have a mechanical advantage over the traditional bow. The same applies to the crossbow

You cannot deny that the crossbow is a bow, it may be mounted on a stock, it may have the cable held in place by a trigger mechanism. And it definitely has mechanical advantages over other bows But you cannot deny that it is a bow.

I don't think anyone would say that a person who uses a compound bow is a traditional bowhunter.
I don't think anyone would say that a person who uses a recurve bow is a crossbower
you have to understand that there are subgroups in just about every category.
A crossbower may not be a traditional bowhunter, and they are not even vertical bowhunters(until vertical crossbows come out)
But if they use a bow, they are a bowhunter


The main point of this thread is not"are crossbow users real bowhunters" it is "should crossbows be allowed during the archery season" They are two seperate topics entirely, let us try to get back on topic please.

 

Facts and data and logic cant be arrogant. The reader can try to apply what they want to invent. It is outside my control if the person see words on their screen and then implies intent. That is on them.

That is not factually correct. There are compound and recurve versions of crossbows. The configuration is not the issue, its the human power vs stored energy aspect that is the real heart of the matter.

but they all share the human powered trait at the heart of the debate.

That is not factually correct. A compound does not store energy any more than a ramp stores energy vs jumping to the next floor of a building. It only allows for mechanical advantage. It stores nothing and once human effort ceases to be applied, it becomes un-drawn.

see correction above.

That is not correct. The means by which it is drawn and how it is held is the very definition of the weapon.

They become a crossbow by the nature of being cocked and locked into a drawn position by means other than human effort.

It is a crossbow. To apply your generic claim, a canoe, jet ski and the titanic are all boats because they are watercraft with a hull that carry passengers. Hence the users propelling them across the water are all the same and can be called the same term.

That is not correct. They are by definition, a crossbower or crossbow hunter. If they were a bowhunter, they would be universally legal in every state (they are not). They can never be a bowhunter in the state of WI because WI created a crossbow season for the crossbower and has a season for bowhunters. Two separate licenses and seasons and registrations for the crossbower and the bowhunter. If what you assert were factual, there would be no states that don't allow crossbows and WI would not have a separate crossbow season for the crossbower. If the crossbower cannot be a bowhunter in states where their use is illegal and they cant be a bowhunter in WI, its silly to imply that they are universally termed bowhunters when its so obvious and easy to disprove.

That is not correct. The main point of this thread is "should the crossbow be included in the archery season?" It says so right in the title of the thread. The subject matter then morphed into "are crossbow users, bowhunters"? The self evident truth is that no, they are not.

Crossbow hunters are hunters (generic term) and they are crossbowers but they are not and cannot by bowhunters. That is a very specific term held only by the human powered hunting archer but some states allow crossbowing right along side bowhunting under a like license. It does not make them bowhunters but rather, crossbowers hunting along side bowhunters.

I contend its only for the sake of stubbornness that folks wont accept this self evident truth.

 

Innovative Outdoorsman,

It is ok to disagree on something. It is also ok to keep things to yourself so you do not offend, or annoy, or frustrate others. I understand your passion for bowhunting and your intent to inform and educate others, however you a representing your LLC whenever you post. Anyone on this forum could be viewed as possible customers for your products. Think about that for a minute.

 

Yes we support and are advocates for bowhunting and bowhunters. I hope that is very clear. Ive never been inclined to worry about offending people with honesty. Its always better to be true to who you are than pretend to be something else. The world would be far better off if everyone followed that credo. Those that would take offense to defending bowhunters are not the sort we want to do business with.

At the same time we support the crossbower. Like bowhunters, they too are hunters (they just are not bowhunters). Ive said it many times. Crossbowing is a good sport and past time and legal in many places.

 

I put my previous post in italics, your response in bold and my rebuttal to your response in regular font.


Hey, I am with you for the most part, but you are extremely arrogant in your arguments, a little more humility would be appreciated . No one will take you seriously if continue to act like an all knowing Sophomore. -Axtell

Facts and data and logic cant be arrogant. The reader can try to apply what they want to invent. It is outside my control if the person see words on their screen and then implies intent. That is on them. -Innovative Outdoorsman

ignored.

Fact #1 A Crossbow is not a compound bow, nor is it a recurve or a longbow. -Axtell

That is not factually correct. There are compound and recurve versions of crossbows. The configuration is not the issue, its the human power vs stored energy aspect that is the real heart of the matter.- Innovative Outdoorsman

You are correct, there are crossbows that use recurve limbs, and those that use cams, that does not by definition make them crossbows or recurves. Only recurve crossbows or compound crossbows. There is a clear difference between the 4 weapons I listed above

Can you please find me a definition of a crossbow that fits your description?

Until then I think it is time for a physics lesson, First of all a bow is not human powered, all bows are powered by stored energy. Nobody draws the string back and then pushes the arrow forward. if they did then that would be a truly human powered bow. Stored energy is simply kinetic energy waiting to be released. When you draw a recurve bow back, energy is stored in the limbs, when you release the string, that potential energy is transfered into kinetic energy. You see you are not the one powering anything.

Don't take my word for it though I will attach a short 3 minute video explaining the difference, please come back and tell me a bow is human powered when you are done watching this very informative video




as for the definitions part, While you are doing that I will provide you with four that define the crossbow as a bow

Free Dictionary: A weapon consisting of a bow fixed crosswise on a wooden stock, with grooves on the stock to direct the projectile.

Merriam Webster:a weapon for shooting quarrels and stones that consists chiefly of a short bow mounted crosswise near the end of a stock

Dictionary.com a medieval weapon consisting of a bow fixed transversely on a stock having a trigger mechanism to release the bowstring, and often incorporating or accompanied by a mechanism for bending the bow.

English Oxford: A medieval bow of a kind that is fixed across a wooden support and has a groove for the bolt and a mechanism for drawing and releasing the string.

Fact #2 A Compound is not a Recurve, nor is it a Longbow. -Axtell
but they all share the human powered trait at the heart of the debate. -Innovative Outdoorsman

I am waiting for an example of someone pushing their arrow.

Fact #3 A Compound bow, while having a far different design than either a recurve or a longbow(relies on energy to be stored in the eccentrics rather than the limbs) it is still considered a bow.- Axtell
That is not factually correct. A compound does not store energy any more than a ramp stores energy vs jumping to the next floor of a building. It only allows for mechanical advantage. It stores nothing and once human effort ceases to be applied, it becomes un-drawn. -Innovative Outdoorsman

A compound does store energy, just as a recurve and a compound and a crossbow do. Check the video.

Let us look at a crossbow now, a crossbow like the compound, stores energy in its cams(eccentrics)-Axtell
see correction above. -Innovative Outdoorsman

No need to repeat myself, alright I will. Watch the video, do some research on how a bow works and come back to me

The method of drawing back the cable does not define the weapon. -Axtell
That is not correct. -Innovative Outdoorsman

Really? You are just gonna say that's not true! and not provide any example?

If I rig up a winch on my compound, or if I create a locking mechanism for my recurve. That does not mean either of those bows cease to be a bow. -Axtell
They become a crossbow by the nature of being cocked and locked into a drawn position by means other than human effort. -Innovative Outdoorsman

Question for you? do Crossbows cock themselves by magic or is human effort involved?


You cannot deny that the crossbow is a bow, it may be mounted on a stock, it may have the cable held in place by a trigger mechanism. And it definitely has mechanical advantages over other bows But you cannot deny that it is a bow. -Axtell
It is a crossbow. To apply your generic claim, a canoe, jet ski and the titanic are all boats because they are watercraft with a hull that carry passengers. Hence the users propelling them across the water are all the same and can be called the same term. -Innovative Outdoorsman

I know it is a crossbow, which is(as the definitions I gave above state) a bow mounted horizontally on a piece of wood, usually having some sort of trigger mechanism. Just like a conoe is a watercraft, but is not a yacht. A yacht is a watercraft, but is not an oil liner.

you have to understand that there are subgroups in just about every category.
A crossbower may not be a traditional bowhunter, and they are not even vertical bowhunters(until vertical crossbows come out)
But if they use a bow, they are a bowhunter -Axtell
That is not correct. They are by definition, a crossbower or crossbow hunter. If they were a bowhunter, they would be universally legal in every state (they are not) -Innovative Outdoorsman

Legality has nothing to do with it. It is illegal to hunt with a fully automatic ak-47 here, but if I use one I am (although illegal, sunsportsmanlike and very unorthadox) a rifle hunter.
And I also stated that someone who uses a crossbow is a crossbower. Just as someone who uses a stick and string is a traditional bowhunter. Yet they both use bows, (unless of course you can prove a crossbow is not a bow) and are therefore bowhunters


The main point of this thread is not"are crossbow users real bowhunters" it is "should crossbows be allowed during the archery season" They are two seperate topics entirely, let us try to get back on topic please. -Axtell
That is not correct. The main point of this thread is "should the crossbow be included in the archery season?" It says so right in the title of the thread. The subject matter then morphed into "are crossbow users, bowhunters"? The self evident truth is that no, they are not. -Innovative Outdoorsman

This argument here is the most credible one you have made so far, yet it is still wrong, while we have decided to explore this venue quite a bit. It is still not the main topic.




Whew well that was alot of writing, let me give you a short order
1. Provide a definition of a crossbow that fits your narritive,(crossbows use stored energy, bows are human powered)(this is an impossible assignment, as I have already shown that crossbows AND traditional bows use stored energy, but you seem to think they don't)

2. Explain to me how bows are human powered, because according to your definition, the confiquration of a bow does not matter, only if it is human powered or not.
3. Prove to me you have a clear understanding of the difference between kinetic energy and potential(stored) energy, show all your work.

4. Once you have done the other three please explain to me how a crossbow is not a bow.

Bonus, refute any of the other points I made,

Note: This assignment is not graded will not count towards your final score at the end of the year. I don't hold things against people.

If you will act like a child, you will be treated as such, let me know when your ready to discus this civilly, as two adults would.

 

Ok I have not read every post here so forgive me if I repeat. I completely understand the debate but we all have to realize that the numbers of hunters are slowly declining. For example in the below report you can see and over all decline in license sells over a decade. The good news is that archery licenses show an increase.

http://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/LicensesandPermits/Pages/HuntingLicenseSalesReport.aspx

Where I am going with this is if allowing someone to hunt with a crossbow will motivate them to go a field and hunt then lets do it. We need to put aside our petty differences and support any legal method of hunting allowed. Granted this comes with the responsibility of educating our group that just because it will shoot a 100 yards doesn't mean you should. That would apply to crossbow, compound or traditional.

So what if your kill does not qualify for P&Y put it in the B&C books or if you care that much start your own.

The bottom line is this we as a society can not let the skillset of hunting to fade away. Its the core of what made us what we are.

Honestly I am not opposed to a open season to where the tool used is at the discretion of the hunter. As long as you are abiding by the bag limits and making quick ethical kills have at it. I'll be using a bow for as long as I physically can.

 

Sure this is quite simple so you will want to be careful in how much you encourage me when it so easy for me to do. I will cock and load my grandfather's crossbow for him on occasion since he cannot. After doing so, I will hand it to him. He will at times leave it cocked for days during the season. The end user applied no human effort. He carries with him a stored energy he did not cock it and applied no human effort in order to kill with it. Another example to easily dispel your error in assumption is the parker concorde self cocking crossbow that use CO2 to both cock and decock the crossbow. In this example a device (mechanism) cocks and decocks the crossbow instead of the user.

Here is a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjRS_G8oN7I



I also drew a compond and recurve and handed it to him for later use but each time, the bow reverted to its relaxed state since the tool is human powered and without human effort is useless. Thank you for the opportunity to so easily answer your impossible assignment. Doing the impossible is always a treat for me each time I do it.

See above. I very neatly wraped a nice ribbon around it for you.

As it relates to bow and arrows and crossbows. See above. Likewise see my prior posting. If I already posted it and you failed to understand, reposting it wont help you gain a complete understanding.

Here you once again made an error of assumption. At no time did I say a crossbow is not a bow. You incorrectly assumed (invented) that. A crossbow is a type of bow (re. it’s a crossbow) Its users are crossbowers. My assertion from day one is that crossbow users are crossbowers and the users of a human powered bow and arrow are bowhunters.

I have done so, over and over. Please take a moment to go back a review the material until such time as it sinks in. Take as much time as you need. I would encourage you to ask as many questions as needed until you understand the material. I'm available to assist you gain an understanding. I think you have the ability to take in these concepts. I'm here for you.


Thank you for the slow pitch and for allowing me to hit one out of the park.

 

You are Correct, I have no problem with people using crossbows in the archery season per say, I believe both the good and the bad need to be weighed out. For example, lets say the Wyoming game commission is losing hundreds of archery tag buyers every year. I won't say thousands as it has yet to be shown that there are even over 1,000 people living there (Jk of course, also I cannot say I know how the regulations are in this state, or how many people hunt there annually, this is hypothetical) lets say Deer are plentiful and there are not that many hunters per deer or per acre or however you wanna measure it. Then I see no problems letting crossbows be used during the archery season. Let people learn about the sport.

If you however you look at how crossbows can and or have impacted states with really high hunter densities, such as Wisconsin or PA etc etc, you can see that there are certain negatives to allowing their use during archery season. The question is, how negative are they and what steps need to be taken to manage the state's herd and encourage the growth of our sport

I have posted some real numbers on the first page of the forum that take's my home state(pa) into consideration.

Bottom line is, and I know I am beating a but there are too many factors to be taken in consideration for a black and white answer for all states across the board. Needs to be answered state by state.

 

While you said you would not grade my work, even you have to admit that right there was A+ work and I went above and beyond in rising to your impossible assignment challenge allowing me to make quick work of the imposible.

Extra credit work below showing the crossbower does not need to cock the crossbow. (Bowhunters have to actually draw and hold the bow using human effort.) 5 shots in a minute and the crossbower never once had to cock the weapon to use it. No draw, no hold, no draw cycle by human effort. All he had to do is load a round in the chamber and squeeze the trigger to discharge the weapon. Bowhunters cant do that. Crossbowers can.