Jeff, if you believe that there are those who have never heard of God, or His love, then maybe it is true. But I believe He is a "just" enough God to reward them accordingly, IF that is the case.
I hope you don't think I have answers. Just ideas and faith. I think about that when I think that satan was an angel. I want you to consider this. When you go outside in the summer time and you see a big ant mound. You ever wonder what those ants are thinking? I mean, they see this monster 1000X thier size. I mean I am sure they have some logical ideas. But I say this is not even close to the comparison of a God who created the universe to man. We would be even more small. So I am not sure illogical or logical has to do with anything.
So, do some of you guys not feel "gipped" a little? According to the Bible...there is only way to the Lord.....which is accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour. Think about the guy (Bill) who busts his ass every day at work for 40 yrs. He's a model employee. He goes above and beyond the call of duty for all his years of service. Yet, when it comes time to retire, he gets the same retirement package as the people who were FAR less loyal employees. They may have even cheated and stolen from the company. Heck....I even hear of guys joining the company a day before their 66th birthday.....and getting full retirement benefits.....same as Bill's. In life, ya got your folks who live their life every day, with the end goal in mind. They lead exemplary existences. There's no doubt in my mind that God would be proud. They get into the promised land without so much as an ID check. Then, you have your folks who carry the minimum limits. They've accepted Jesus as their saviour. Heck, they may have event sent the "other guy" to meet his maker, and later accepted Jesus, right before their own demise (maybe even moments before the stewardess was telling everyone to buckle-up for the red-eye to the promised land). My question is, will these folks be neighbors in Heaven? Or, will the super holy-rollers have places in God's personal gated neighborhood? Is God gonna play favorites, once everyone is there? Or is "In"....."In"?
Well, the bible speaks of recieving crowns. Jesus Christ said, those who were first here, might be last there, and vise versa. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things DONE IN THE BODY, according to what He has done, whether good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10) and each one will receive His own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR.” (1 Corinthians 3:8) And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone ACCORDING TO HIS WORK.” (Revelation 22:12) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:7-8) SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD which is among you, serving as overseers, not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the CROWN OF GLORY that does not fade away.” (1 Peter 5:1-4)
Well, Jeff, its fairly clear to me with the passages I laid out. But you might see it differently. We are not exactly sure who the 12 saints are in Revelations. Thats a special place to be. But I would say from all my studying, yes, some will definately have more reward. Honestly, I will be happy if I am cleaning the toilets. I say that in jest, but all I want is to stand in the Glory of an Almighty God. Matthew 19:29-30 (New King James Version) 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[a] or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
But with all that said, its clear in the Bible, that those who have been given many gifts on earth much will be expected. In other words, lets say a person doesn't have much as far as gifts, but another has prospered beyond beleive by God's blessings. The man with much will be expected to do much. Look at Jesus's own words. This passage scares me because I have been given much. This is the passage I see when I see some celebrity giving a million to a charity, but with 20million back in the bank. Mark 12 41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites,[j] which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”
See Big....this is where I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. See.....IMO, your way of looking at it only breeds the type of "class envy" I speak of in Christianity. And, if you feel morally superior (not saying you do....just saying...honestly), explaining it this way (or, believing this way) is the only way you can justify all of your "additional work". I mean...how fair would it be to guys like you, Bobby and PT, if we all ended up living on the same street in Heaven (so to speak)? And, how fair would it be to me.......to share a duplex with Charles Manson, after all of his atrocities, even though he accepted Jesus as his saviour on his death bed? I mean.....I accepted him years ago....and I never had anyone killed! Are we not forgiven of our sins by God when we accept Jesus? Your feelings aren't just yours, Big. And, I'm not singling you out. You're probably one of the few I would expect to answer my questions honestly. And, I appreciate you doing so. I don't feel the way you do about this. That's cool, too. Have a great day.
Jeff, I will agree with most of what BC said, but I will also add, I will not be a judge of these things. You have picked my interest in the matters of your questions though, and opened a new topic of study for me. (I will get back to you on some of that) I do have a bit of a rub with this statement though. (You are by far not the only one who has brought it up) There is no where that this is stated in the Word of God. It is a made up verse that people use to say they are saved. We don't "accept" Christ. We ask for His forgiveness through repentance, and then "He accepts us" as being washed, and clean of our past sins. You see Jeff, God does not "need" us, He "wants" us. He desires for us to be His children and servants in "His" kingdom.
Class envy is what gets Christians in trouble. I have been there. When things start creeping in your head, like, look how much I gave, or look what good deed I done, you just blew it. The pride you developed was sin. God permitted you to do it, or give. If you start feeling morally superior, you just blew it. Humility is key and one of the toughest things to master. I feel like I have not scratched the surface with humility. Without humility, your good deeds are dirty rags to God. The greek translation for dirty rags is a menstral cloth. This is debatable. Isaiah 64:6, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags I can't convince you my way of thinking. All I can do is lay out whats in the book. After that, its up to the individual. They can either believe or reject.
Science can not prove god does NOT exist. Religion can not prove god DOES exist. Either way you go requires faith. I asked a hypothetical question that some of you were kind enough to answer. This is the second "part" to that question. Hypothetical question: If you (anyone) knew there was a god would it change the way you live your life? My answer to both questions is...no. I am good with the way I live my life. If there is no god, no problem, if there is, no problem. I try to live my life, now, so that I can stand in front of anyone and review it, re-live it and say, this who I am and I am fine with it. I will accept responsibility for who I am and all of my actions. Two people show up for judgement day (if you believe in that ) and they both have lived very similar lives except, at one point, one of them chose to have faith that there was god and started living life differently. The other had faith that there was no god but chose to start living life differently because they felt they should for other reasons. Does one get held out of heaven for the sole reason that they did not believe in god and the other get in for the same reason? Same scenario but there is NO judgement day. Now you have two dead people, one lived part of their life in expectation of greater reward and got none. One lived part of their life with no expectation of any greater reward but recieved their reward daily with the satisfaction of knowing they are acting the way they are because they want to, not because they have to. I generally avoid these conversations because folks become offended and they degenrate into a mess, kind of like political conversations. This conversation looks like people are trading thoughts and being thoughtful. That's why jumped in. Hopefully it will stay that way.
We shouldn't feel gipped. Why? Because I don't think that any of us deserve to be there in the first place. Besides, Jesus gives us the "heads up" with his story about the workers in Matt 20:1 or the returning son Luke 15:11. Once everyone is in, who cares? From what I can tell, we will all be so different anyway that it won't matter. No sickness, hate, jealousy, no marriage.... I find looking into what heaven is like a very fascinating thing. But, like I said before about creation vs. evolution, what I find,has little to do with how I live my life loving God and loving people. Besides, if I make it, I'll be such a different being that it won't really matter what I think now, my perception will have changed so much. I think God would like us to feel this way here & now. Who even says we have houses, or sleep, or even recognize who others were in heaven? I don't think we have to worry of fairness. I don't think there is "worry" in heaven either. For me, Jesus' whole point was not "here's how to get into heaven". His point is "Love the Lord your God. & Love your neighbor as yourself". If we get caught up in the how to get there, we end up just like the religious leaders of Jesus' day. He roasted them for following laws with empty hearts. They were doing things so that others could see, so that they could get what they want. Jesus confronted this by saying things like "when you fast, do so privately". This way, you are doing it for the right reasons. You can fake all the "laws" or go through the motions, but you can't fake love. I like the story of the rich young man and Jesus. This rich dude walk up to Jesus and asks him what good things he must do to get eternal life. Jesus lists some commandments, and the guy is like, "awesome, I've done all those!" Then Jesus tells him to go home, sell all his stuff, give that to the poor and the big part, "Come follow me." I think this was a good man. Followed the Law, Jesus didn't even dispute him when he said he loved his neighbor. Jesus knew his heart and that he had comfort in his wealth. So He took a good man, and called him to be better. The story in the Bible ends with the man leaving sad, but I often wonder... what did he do? You want to know a prayer that God almost always answer for me right away? "God, what is an area in my life that you would have me change?" Try it someday. I triple dog dare you Many times what he points out to me makes me sad at the moment. But in these are also the areas that I've seen the biggest growth in my life. Bottom line, there are all sorts of things that we should or shouldn't do, what He really want is for us to follow Him.
I think it will Bruce. As for me, to answer your questions (without quoting your last post), I would have to say "I can not answer them with my beliefs. For without the grace and mercy of God, I do not believe we would even still be here today, much less be able to do anything of a positive manner. It is, again, my belief, that to live your life "being good" in your own eyes, is self-centered and prideful, whether you believe there is a God or not.
1000000000% truth you cannot POSSIBLE answer this as you have never been "Born Again" tho .... it would be like me saying I would be the same if I was born a rich black female in Zimbabwe .... The Bible says when you are in Christ you are a NEW creature ... so I have been both ... my truth and now trusting in God's truth. I would think that MOST people feel this way .... but put yourself up against Jesus' righteousness and NOW how do you fair? NONE of us fair well then ... that is WHY Christ came ... only perfection can enter Heaven ... so we enter thru HIS righteousness .. that is what we are to repent of .... trusting in ours and putting our trust in HIS ... HE took our place on the cross'=. It all goes back to having to be perfect to go to Heaven ..... we CAN'T be in and of ourselves .... Jesus lived 33 1/2 years with ZERO sin and allowed Himself to die for all that would put their trust in HIS perfect life, death, and resurrection .... this ALL according to the Bible ... if you dismiss the Bible, then my entire argument is invalid in all of your minds.... For everything else, Fitz has stated things very well ... listen to him and ask God for God's truth .... He WILL show you... Love you all!! Preacher Tony
As a believer (Catholic type) I am satisfied that God exists, although my perception of God may differ substantially from yours. Before converting to the Catholic faith, I was basically Shinto. Knowledge gained from both has convinced me that God exists. So I disagree with your second point based on my personal experience. As for your first point, I am a science major, (biology) so I have first-hand knowledge and experience with scientific pursuits. So your first point puzzles me, because it is not the goal of scientific research to prove that God does not exist. I can't imagine where anyone would have gotten that notion.
I am curious as to why you would make the statement then. It implies that somehow science would be involved in an attempt to prove the non-existence of God. There is no connection between science and any attempt to prove the existence or non-existence of God. It would make just as much sense to say that the NCAA cannot prove that God does NOT exist. My objection to your statement is that it implies that science and religion are in conflict. They are not and the implication just bothers me a bit.
It states that science cannot prove god does not exist. It doesn't imply anything. It is a statement. I could easily have said science cannot prove god does exist, which is also true. It is a simple statement don't confuse yourself by making it more than it is.
