I wanted to move this discussion away from Matt's Prayer request so we didn't get too sidetracked.... But these are all great questions! Not great as in good, but great in enormity. So, let's dive in. I'll preface this like I always try to. I'm no biblical scholar. I have no more definitive answers than anyone else. I can completely disagree with you and still like you... we're most-likely both wrong anyways! Like I said in my previous post, I believe in the Kingdom of God. The fulfillment of the Kingdom is a new world where God gets his way, always. The complete & utter defeat of Evil including Death & Satan. This is the Kingdom that I look forward to. The world we live in now, is barely a shadow of that world. God isn't the only player on the field. Satan, demons, humans, angels all have a roll. as far as humans go, many are unaware of their participation. Many that are aware, have no idea what they are doing (many churches/kings/cults). In fact, many who try to help God's team can mess things up even more than those fighting against God. I digress, back to the matter at hand. In Jesus, at the cross & resurrection God scored a huge victory in ushering in his Kingdom. Victory over death itself, and deepening his relationship with all humankind through Jesus & the Holy Spirit. God's Kingdom has the capability of breaking through into this world, in part or wholly, at any given moment. Someone once explained it to me in this way by comparing it to WWII. D-day was the turning point of the war. The victory that day changed the course of everything. The tide shifted and the Allies were on their way to full victory. But, the fight wasn't over yet. Battle of the Bulge, concentration camps, the South Pacific. Millions of lives would be lost, horrible thing would still happen, but things had shifted. Jesus' victory over death shifted the tide of the fight. But full victory is not yet here. There will still be battles, lives lost, and sacrifices made... but victory is at hand. Another way to think of it is your house and family. You build your house. You protect it, and have authority over it. Your kids have their room and their lives, but you can control much of it... but not all. You can't force them to think something, say something, believe something or love you. You can be assured that someone will not break in and harm them, and you can't ensure that they won't harm themselves. As for God's logic. No, it's not like ours. But I'm glad of this. My logic doesn't make sense much of the time. And don't get me started on my views of the logic I see in people like politicians and many religious leaders! No, God's logic is vastly different than ours. He has and infinitely holistic view of all mankind, yet still knows us individually on an infinite level. Lately I've been finding greater and greater comfort in His logic vs even my own. Sure he did. Because Jesus led a sinless life in the eye's of his Father. That's why his death was payment for all of our sins. I've always been a strong believer in this, but I'm believing it less and less these days. I can't help but look back at my life now, and history, and see the work of both Satan and God. Things I've always attributed to chaos or chance I've been seeing in a new light.
If God is all powerful, why can't he just crush this Satan guy/thing/woman/monster with the snap of his fingers? I know davidmil and my father both spent multiple tours in Vietnam and elsewhere. My grandfather fought in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Weren't they "sent off to die" by their fathers? They sacrificed for our sins didn't they? None of this stuff makes any sense whatsover in a logical way. Now God may in fact exist, but His logic and ours is not even on the same level. We obviously do not think like Him. So why do we continue to use man's words (the Bible) to try and justify everything out there in a religious sense? Man's word is not his at all. Now if man's word is God's word, then God himself is active in the world today. And if he is active the world today and allows women/kids to be kidnapped for 15-20 years and placed in the cellar of some sicko's house and she is impregnanted by that same sicko then what??? I don't see "the plan" in that at all, NONE>. And if you see "the plan" in that crap, then you must admit that God's idea of this world and ours must be way different.
Hypothetical question: If you (anyone) knew there was no god would it change the way you live your life?
Man's being left alone (AKA "Free-will") is under-appreciated (IMO). This takes nothing out of the hands of God's control. I think he controls what he wants to control (and vice-versa). We're on our own a lot more than I feel many believe. Some see something happen and say "miracle". Others see the same thing and cite "coincidence". I wouldn't argue with either of them. Wow. With less than a minute to consider my answer.......NO. *Edit....I suppose I'd cease and desist with the prayers, in their current form. But, I know I'd still have spiritual conversations (if only with myself). Weird thought.
So when we talk about how some sicko turns and blows away 5-10 people at a convenience store, then gets off by not getting put to death, are you saying that God was not involved in the occurence? You are saying that most events are not part of "God's plan", correct? If so, you should put a lot more stock in the daily actions of man and their capabilities, than that of an omnipresent yet 'hands off" being with little to no desire/ability to influence our actions one way or another.
Let me preface this with the fact "I do believe in God". If you do not believe in God, who is there to blame? Man? Evil? If you don't believe in God, then who do you blame, for all of the chaos, wickedness cruelty, etc., in the world today? I am nt saying we should blame God, but if we do not really believe in His existence, why do we become indignant towards His being when the questions of suffering come about? Man is kind of like a Bee. If the Bee is born to work, reproduce, pollinate, etc., and yet immediately takes off and just starts stinging everything in sight, has he fulfilled his purpose? We are no different. We are not born to wreak havoc, but yet we do, and we suffer. If you don't believe in God, then why do you care what happens to your fellow man, family, friends? Did you get these feelings by being an evolutionary animal, or some other form of creation?
Must we blame anybody? Nature is cruel. Higher intelligent animals are known to murder each other. Eat the young of a rival. Is that Satan? Survival of the species.
What if you do believe in God.....and think those feelings are a natural part of the evolution of man?
I don’t know. But I do think this “all powerful” view of God can be skewed fairly easily. Like I’ve said before, I think there is a battle going one here. It’s not a battle if someone is in 100% control. We have common ground here. My father was Force Recon in Vietnam. He is a hero for sure… but certainly not perfect. There is a big difference between soldiers going to war and Jesus. Soldiers aren’t sent for the purpose of dying. I also don’t think they sacrifice FOR our sins (maybe because of them). Jesus was sent by God. He lived a perfect life in God’s eyes, then chose to die on the cross as payment for the sins of all mankind. All of us, until the end of times. I agree 100% that God’s logic and man’s logic are not the same. I’m glad for it though. My logic is pretty messed up sometimes. And don’t get me started on some religious & political leaders. Yes, man’s word is flawed. Our thoughts are slanted by our worldviews (personal to each of us according to: our families, experiences, culture, geographic location, etc.). My skewed thoughts then have to be arranged by my pea-brain, of which I apparently use 10% of. Now my “organized” thoughts need to be translated into language which can be very limiting (try describing the feeling after shooting your first deer with a bow). Then my words are typed in this forum, where my cadence, sarcasm and tone are all but lost. Finally, my words are read and interpreted by people just as messed up as me I think many people and Churches get so caught up in the words, that they miss the whole story. A story that is so intriguing that its been a bestseller for 2000 years. I think man’s words can be inspired by God, but it is deluded from there. I do however believe strongly that God is active in the world today. I have seen many things throughout my life that I attribute to catching glimpses of what God is doing. Like I’ve indicated before, I believe he’s active, but he’s not the only one active. No, I don’t see the plan. Maybe catch a glimpse of just a small part of it now and then, but I never pretend to have the mind of God. Look, I believe God calls us to seek him. Even by asking these hard questions we are in part Seeking God. To me, there is a huge difference between seeking and finding. There is an inherent end to finding. There you are Jesus. I win! It doesn’t work like that. Seeking to me seems much more open ended. I can never fully find Jesus (or know him fully). But I can spend all of my days seeking Him. I’ve often found signs of where He’s been. Seen things He’s done. I’ve caught glimpses of what He’s working on. The more time I spend seeking Him, the more work I see Him doing, and in turn, the more opportunity I have in being part of His work.
No one truly knows God's role in every situation on Earth, except for God himself...., but can anyone honestly tell me they believe that a creation theory of our world is less logical than one not including a God? You can't see the wind, but you can for sure witness its effects. I think God plays a similar role.
I tell you what. I was going thru my old testiment. And just reading thru, there, I just couldn't wrap my arms around it. I mean, telling the jews to kill every child. Lots daughters commiting incest. The Levite cutting the concubine into 12 pieces. King David stealing a mans wife, getting her pregnant, and getting the man killed. I mean its alot to handle. Your mind starts wondering about what is real. But I always got to to go back, to "if I could easily understand my God, he wouldn't be much of a God."
From the looks of it, most people are looking for someone/something to blame. Just an uneducated observation I guess. Key word "Animals". If you want to classify humans in that expanse, feel free. I just do not place myself in that category of being. So, you are saying that in order for a species to survive, they "come up" with their own array of emotions for each other? They did this on their own? That is like saying, no one really knew how to treat each other when they were born. When a mother had a child, 2000 yrs ago, did she not have the same feelings a mother has today? Father's for their sons? No, I believe God placed a concious in every man to know right from wrong, love from hate, etc.
Trevor, if we truly know God, and have a relationship with Him, we know His role is "He is Lord of all". No matter what He does or does not do, He remains the same. No offense whatsoever. Just making a statement. I also agree 100% with the rest of your statement.
2000 years ago? A mere blink. What you're giving God credit for (and I'm not gonna argue with you on it), could simply be written off as "instinct". I think it's our instinct to love our families and friends. I think it's become instinctual, via evolution.
No, my friend, 2000 yrs is not a mere blink. But, I digress. Then answer this? Are we done developing our own "instinct"? I will divert to say, I will always be more than willing to give God credit, than a theory that holds no water.
As long as we exist (as a species), we will continue to develop our instincts. Are you gonna sit here and deny that humans have evolved? What are you claiming doesn't "hold water"?
We, or at least I dont, have the power to "develop" an instinct. An instinct is not developed, you are born with it. Skills are taught. Imaginations build. Only God can "create". What did we evolve from? How have we evolved? Mentally developed? Yes. Imaginations to build on knowledge? yes. Evolve? No. Evolution does not hold water. None. Anyone who believes that stuff should walk outside in the dark, close their eyes, be real still and quiet (maybe even plug their ears. Then tell me what they see with their eyes closed could actually become something. Not possible.
We're done. Lost cause. Last thing, though.....You'd have been a giant 2000yrs ago. If no one had evolved over that time, you still would be. But, evolution is bunk, right? Bobby, you don't have to sell your soul to Satan to recognize the FACT that humans have evolved. But, if you do, I'd sure love for you to videotape one of your church sermons for me. Do you guys deny electricity exists? Think the world is flat? Fall up?
