There are laws in place about discrimination against people for their orientation/ethnicity/etc too... This whole thread is hypothetical. So regardless of the circumstances, you believe a business owner should be allowed to refuse service to anyone regardless of his reasoning? Yet price gouging is wrong?
Yes and yes. No need to have different pricing for different customers, if one doesn't want to do business based on a belief then just don't do it. Going ahead and doing business with them at a higher price isn't suiting any belief system, it's just taking advantage. It's supposed to be a free country, freedom to be stupid, freedom to accept customers and freedom as a consumer to choose a business to patronize. Discrimination in itself is a right we should all be afforded, when you start forcing non-discrimination issues, you open a can of worms that can't be closed. Smokers are discriminated against, Christians are discriminated against, Crossbow hunters are discriminated against, hunters as a whole are discriminated against...if you look hard we are all discriminated against in some form or fashion. Either you value your rights or you don't, including the right to be discriminatory on who you do business with as a business and a consumer. If government has a right to force a business owner to provide consumer products and services to anyone then does it have a right to force you as a consumer to patronize a business you do not like? I'm not saying I discriminate based on race or orientation, I'm saying I believe I should be able to reserve that right to do so if I wish.
And what is the difference in allowing people to refuse a black man service vs charging a black man more for said service? If the owner truly should be allowed to do as he sees fit with his business, why should government have oversight of one but not the other? I guess my main question to get right to it for those with your mindset... Do you believe a gay man deserves less human rights than a black man or any other minority? If you don't believe that, should business owner's in the South be allowed to revert to the stereotypical 1950's model of owning a business down here? Sorry to keep asking leading/pointed questions... I just can't gather whether you are contradicting yourself or not.
Justification. One cannot logically argue that if their belief system prevents them from doing business with anyone, that raising the price somehow circumvents the same beliefs. I'm not contradicting myself, you just can't seem to hone in on a specific to argue with but since you disagree you feel compelled to keep looking for a specific to grab hold of. I think we have a basic disagreement on what constitutes "human rights". What human right do you feel is being violated by a privately owned business refusing a sale to a person for any reason? Why is the consumers human rights any more important than the private business owners rights? A private business owners services are an intellectual property and in the case of products, is private property...where is the justification for forcing someone to share their intellectual property or their personal property to anyone who demands it? I think the basic mistake is somewhere along the way, people have gotten confused between actual human rights (defined here- List of Human Rights) and some misconstrued version where it's assumed that human rights include a right to demand private services and/or products, which are not listed anywhere in a list of human rights I can find. First off, my beliefs concerning race or orientation have no bearing on the issue, once again {for the record} my position is private business should have the right to refuse business to anyone at any time be that race, orientation, hair color, bad breath, dress code, ethics, religion, gender or citizenship. This goes back to how one defines "human rights". If I define human rights as conforming to the articles in that Universal Declaration of Human Rights...then the answer is no and I don't see where any private business refusing services/goods conflicts with those articles. They would do so at their own risk. If they want to simulate a Ferguson MO then sure. BTW the 1950's are long gone in every respect, in spite of the false narratives pushed forth by the media and race baiters. In a "free society" you shouldn't have to FORCE businesses to provide services. Liberty functions best with encouragement rather than force. Forcing compliance against beliefs is only a recipe for brewing hate, not actual acceptance...from either side of any issue. Too many people want to use force for every whim and difficulty...if a business doesn't want to provide you with a service or a good, find one that will...problem solved.
Just as restaurants can make you wear a tie to eat there... and bars can refuse service to a biker wearing a patched jacket... If a gay comes in my business and wants to buy something, fine... but if he comes in with his partner and they start hugging and kissing... it's out the door... your life style your choice... but dont flaunt it in my face...
Yep. Private businesses should have the right to discriminate. Now...the public also has the right to brutally attack that business and boycott or whatever. Which I'm sure would happen in most cases, so that is why I do not think this would be a big thing. A businesses not allowing blacks to enter just wouldn't be very successful in today's world. Maybe in some podunk town in MS, but not in any major city. The public would destroy it.
I wish I could believe it would all work out as you to seem to believe. Personally I have nowhere near that much faith in humanity and I'm glad there are laws preventing your model from being in place again. I only asked different scenarios trying to better grasp how you actually feel on it... Common sense to me seems lost on those still race baiting just as much as those arguing in favor of returning to the days where free and open discrimination was acceptable.
You don't believe that any business that discriminated against blacks, women, gays, whoever would not be a very successful business in today's world? At least not in the majority of the US? It would constantly be berated on the news and on social media. Acceptable by the government is one thing. Acceptable by private business owners is another. I'm a firm believer in the free market and I believe that the free market would sort it all out.
I believe that business owners should have the right to refuse service to whom they wish as likewise we as consumers have the right to boycott said business. I don't however believe that someone should be allowed to withhold necessary services or life giving services based on color or sexual preference. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As a business owner, I think it should be my right to refuse service to someone. I should have the right to refuse service to someone that can not communicate with me in English. I should have the right to refuse service to someone for any reason I see fit. And, I have the right to suffer the consequences of those decisions. That being said, I have no problem working with gay or lesbian couples.
A lot of hypotheticals, but at issue is not only providing service, but almost participating in events against ones beliefs. if I am a wedding photographer and a couple of homosexual men want me to phitograph there nuptials, I would decline, and I am having a hard time figuring why the homosexual mafia has a problem with that. They are intentionally approaching small businesses and demanding someone to participate in there union, knowing full well that the business will decline so they can sue and make an issue and shut the businesses.
I believe you should have the right to refuse some if what they are asking you to provide goes against your belief. The example as you said about the gay marriage thing if your a Christian and you feel that it goes against what you believe(the bible) I feel you have ever right to refuse. But if I owned a business like a gas station I'm not going to refuse service because your pumping gas and cant see where that would go against my believes you being gay. I think people jump at us Christian thinking we are judging people when simply we are just going by and honoring what we believe in, and not condemning people for what they do but not agreeing to it at the same time. I just think the media and courts have to make money off someone so why not target what in our country now has been the focus more than anything else which is Race, and religion. God gave us free will and the ability to make choices that we must live with and will answer for once made.
They want to be a protected class, which at this point, I do not think they are federally. Many states have made them a protected class though. In there minds its the same as someone denying business to someone because they are black or a woman or Muslim. Which I would agree that it is the same, but I also believe that a private business should have the right to refuse service to anyone that it chooses.
It has nothing to do with being a protected class and everything to do with strong arming businesse and forcing a lifestyle on them or else.
Hooker is right. The Supreme Court has not ruled that gays are a protected class. But some lower courts are handing down rulings based on the assumption that the Supremes will do just that. And if you are operating a business open to the public, you cannot discriminate against members of a protected class. I don't think it makes sense to run up a pile of legal bills and maybe lose your business just to make a point about your religious beliefs. Just because you're photographing a gay "wedding" doesn't mean you have to regard it as a real wedding yourself.
Food for thought...if i force you to enter a contract under threat or duress it's voidable. But a private business can be forced to do business with someone...? 'Splain it to me Lucy.
Equal access to public accomodations will always be more important than individual freedoms, courts have ruled this way for years. The best way to understand civil rights issues is to look at history; maybe read a little on Theodore Bilbo or Bob Jones University.
