Penetration

Discussion in 'Bowhunt or Die® - Web Show' started by tkarrow, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Thanks for the clarity Justin. Now let me ask you this. What has changed from this year to years past? I guess I should have mentioned early on that I have been watching from Season 1 to present. Perhaps you're right and my perception is wrong and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Just watching Season 6 and I see an uptick of shots that are passing completely through as expected for the particular shot. I can also see why a couple shots didn't pass through with a mechanical. Mechanicals hate bone and are a poor insurance policy if the shot isn't all that great.

    I'm curious about the Dean bucks. The second buck, its pretty clear that most of the arrow was hanging out. it even falls out 20 yards into the run.

    Anyway, its my favorite show along with one or two others. Keep up the great work. I still stand by my position that since season 1, I'm astonished at the number of deer shot with a large portion of the arrow sticking out the entry side as they run off.

    As I've reiterated, I have zero against anyone on the BHOD crew, in fact I like these guys a lot, particularly Justin as I've met him in person at a show. Its just something that has caught my attention since season one that seemed out of the ordinary compared to the norm. This is more a curiosity thing on setups and what arrow/broadhead/weight combo is being used. I realize that all of those things will be defended because they're sponsors of the show, pay the bills, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  2. Matt/TN

    Matt/TN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    You may see more pass thru shots next year as some of the team members switch to the Halon. They'll have a little more energy.

    I think Justin had a good point about perception too. I think we see a few shots like that (poor penetration) and it gets our mind on it.

    Me personally, I've killed 25ish deer with a Rage and my last 9 have been with the Xtreme. The last 8 have been pass thru. It's been 4 years since I didn't get a pass thru and that was because I was shooting a 305 IBO target bow as my backup hunting bow (long story). To be fair, the Midwest deer they're killing are substantially bigger than what I'm hunting. The buck I killed last week was my heaviest to date at 154lbs dressed. Honestly, with my setup, I would shoot a bigger cut if Rage would make it. When/If I go to the Midwest, I'll drop back to a 2" cut probably.

    Justin, you guys just keep putting Giants on the ground!

    On a side note, is Todd not really hunting Wisconsin much this year? I figured he'd be up there trying to put a tag on a 3rd buck


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  3. Justin

    Justin Administrator

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    I don't know that anything has changed substantially from one year to the next. A couple more guys shooting Spitfires than before and maybe a few guys with some brass inserts but nothing substantial.

    As for Todd - he hunted WI pretty hard back in late Oct and Nov but couldn't put it all together. They killed 2 good bucks off his place during rifle season though. After that I think he's done for the year.
     
  4. maxpetros

    maxpetros Grizzled Veteran

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    Aside from you shooting the pile drivers, from what I can tell everyone else shoots the maxima reds or blue streaks. Both relatively light arrows. That in conjunction with large mechanicals generally doesn't yield the best penetration


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  5. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    I understand the wound channel logic, but I think in the case you just mentioned, you simply got lucky. I think we as bowhunters, the good ones that is, understand there will always come a time we'd rather be lucky than good. I tend to disagree that the bigger cut is the difference. I personally shoot a little 4 blade Slick Trick. One could say that having the extra blades perpendicular could make the difference between a lost and found deer. Rage's only have two blades on a single plane. Stupid I know, but plausible I guess.

    My biggest concern is bone. Anything will blow through hair, thin hide and some organs. Most of our shots never hit any thicker bone than ribs. I'm more concerned with the hits if I don't do my part and miss the mark, hitting shoulder, etc. Its going to happen, I'm sure of it. I shoot fixed heads like the Slick Trick for the bone insurance. lol

    Justin, I'd love to see what the actual setups you guys all shoot really are. I'm curious to see what the KE is, etc. Its pretty much the off season, I'm bored. haha
     
  6. Riverduck11

    Riverduck11 Weekend Warrior

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    Thanks for posting those penetration stats. I love stats, they paint the true picture! Minimized penetration is something I am trying to solve in my own setup. I believe it basically comes down to the large Killzone expandable as I have shot a 392 grain arrow and have shot my last two with a 467 grain arrow. While every shot has different variable, I saw no real difference in penetration. However, I have not lost a deer yet with them and have been so impressed with the size of the entry hole in everyone.

    Hard to believe I read someone calling this the offseason! Here in Ohio we have until February 7th to bow hunt. I have killed 3 of my last 5 deer after Christmas! Love the late season!

    Great Show I have honestly enjoyed watching every single episode since Season 1!
     
  7. frantic29

    frantic29 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Interesting read. I always wonder about set ups. They already have a field staff personnel thread on here. I can tell bows but they rarely talk about poundage, arrow weight, etc. Would be cool to incorporate setup stats in with it.
     
  8. Fitz

    Fitz Legendary Woodsman

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    I shoot Piledrivers and HellRazors....

    ... but unfortunately, I don't shoot deer so there's no data to be had. :busted:
     
  9. Matt/TN

    Matt/TN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    This made me actually LOL. Sorry Fitzy!


    On a side note, you have to love having a camera on everything you do. EVERYTHING these guys do is heavily scrutinized. It comes with the territory but I'm sure we all have made the same mistakes that these guys get pounded for.

    I watch the show for the entertainment. I know these guys aren't perfect, no one is.



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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  10. tommy2shot

    tommy2shot BHOD Crew

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    I personally love the Killzone 100gr and will continue to shoot it again this up coming season. Killed 3 this year using them 1 was a pass through the others did not. I honestly will take pin point accuracy over a fixed blade and I feel like they fly better with " my" set up. I also prefer a heavier arrow or an insert to help with penetration.
     
  11. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    I have never personally seen a broadhead shoot bad out of a tuned bow though, fixed, mechanical, huge diameter or small. May have just been lucky in my cases.
     
  12. Matt/TN

    Matt/TN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    I purchased a pack of Killzone Maxx with the intention of switching to them from the Rage Xtreme earlier this year. I ended up swapping them for a pack of Xtreme's. I didn't like how much force was required to open the blades in comparison to the Rage.

    I'm thinking about checking out the Spitfire XXX next year. I just wish it was a rear deploying head


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  13. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    I actually thought about trying the Rage Hypodermics at some point. Its the only one that appeals to me from the stand point of being durable enough to punch through bone if I screw up and hit that shoulder. I have nothing against the mechs, I used to use them and never had an issue. I switched to the Slick Trick Standards for simplicity and durability. That tiny little head just amazes me. Holes have been plenty big and the blood trails more than enough to follow.
     
  14. emorken

    emorken Newb

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    Hi guys. I don't comment on here much but I was looking on the Forum to see if anyone else had commented on this exact subject with the show. I have watched every episode of Bow Hunt or Die. I'm on the website every Friday to catch the latest one, but I too am shocked at how often there is very little penetration on the deer that are shot.

    The December 31 episode is a perfect example. The first deer is never recovered. Even the second deer out of the ground blind that is recovered has very little penetration. That was a perfectly placed shot with no shoulder bone getting hit. There's no reason there shouldn't have been a clean pass through. I know the show is sponsored by certain companies, and they're going to shoot those arrows and broadheads. My two cents is that it has the opposite effect of the what they're looking for. I wouldn't buy the Carbon Express arrows because of what I've seen on the show.

    Years ago, I was having problems with getting the penetration I wanted with Easton Flatlines. I know I never should have went with that light of an arrow in the first place, but I was just getting into bow hunting and didn't know a lot about it. I decided to look at a lot of different arrows and was convinced to give the VAPs by Victory a try. They are worth every cent. I shoot Ulmer Edge heads, which I'll have to find a replacement for now after they were discontinued. I have shot seven deer with that combination and had clean pass throughs every time. They are incredibly accurate and hard hitting.

    I really enjoy this show. It's just discouraging seeing arrows getting only inches of penetration time and again even when the deer are recovered. It's something that could lead to an injured animal, much like what happened in the latest episode.
     
  15. bloodcrick

    bloodcrick Moderator/BHOD Prostaff

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    My last 2 Deer I have shot, 1 Buck and 1 Doe have not been pass throughs. BUT I have verified through autopsy that both those hit the off side shoulder square and bounced back! Deer dead with 12-13 seconds. Both with mechanicals, my spring gobbler was the opposite, normally most of my birds retain the arrow, this one went through, hit the ground took flight again and went another 30 yards again a mechanical. The Doe should be on an upcomming episode.
     
  16. bowhunter42

    bowhunter42 BHOD Crew

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    I shoot pile drivers extreme. Arrow is 490gr. with lighted nock.
     
  17. Dubbya

    Dubbya Moderator

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    Sorry, I've joined the party a little late. Lots of good points throughout the thread, so here is my story and take on everything.

    I can only speak for my particular setup, but in the first few seasons I was shooting an Easton Axis 340 (pre-carbon express partnership) with spitfire Maxx broadheads. Total arrow weight was around 415r, 70lbs and 29" of draw out of my z7xtreme. The only shots that didn't pass-through were the two does that I spine shot. Mule deer buck in 2011, passed through at 50 yards, antelope bucks at 64 and 67 both passed through completely as well.

    In 2012 I began shooting the KZ, I shot a quartering to antelope at 28 yards and the KZ exited out the back, fletchings in the front.

    In 2013 if I remember correctly, I was shooting a CX mayhem hunter at 71lbs, 29" draw. Total arrow weight around 460 out of the Heli-m. The buck that I shot that year out of the backyard was 56 yards and hit the offside shoulder so there was no passthrough, I'm still okay with that result.

    I shot several does in 2014, 2 of 4 of were complete passthroughs, the other two I feel like should have penetrated better than they did. This setup was same mayhem arrow out of a 29", 72b chill.

    In 2015, I changed my whole setup. I shot a bear at point blank range, 480r arrow, 71b HTR and the KZ stuck in the dirt on the offside. For deer/elk, I went back to the Spitfire Maxx and the new 2" Spitfire XXX for my IL buck. There is no questions that the spitfire heads penetrate better than the KZ in most situations. The monster Wake that I shot in IL is shooting a 502r arrow at 302fps, yes... those are real numbers. It had zero problem pushing the 2" 3-blade clean through that deer.

    I get to see a LOT of animals shot with different broadheads every year from antelope to deer to elk, I've held the same position for a long time... 90% of the time I see an imperfect shot... I'm hoping they're shooting a mechanical head. Any broadhead will work when you shoot them in the heart or lungs. We don't buy broadheads to kill deer when we make a perfect shot, field points will do that. IMO we should buy a broadhead that gives us the best opportunity to recover a deer when we make a bad shot. The largest majority of "bad" shots are back, not forward. Whether it's because animals never move backwards when the bow goes off or if guys are shooting quartering-to shots, whatever... There is no question that the bigger the hole, the larger the wound, the more tissue damage you can get from broadhead, the better of you are when it comes to animals hit "back." An arrow that is shot behind the diaphragm shouldn't have any problem passing through regardless of the setup, so the advantage goes to big wicked mechanical (I don't care which one) in this situation. Even if it didn't pass through, I would take more tissue damage over an exit hole when an animal is gut shot.

    My personal problem with mechanical heads is that they are often times used for the wrong reasons. Guys can't get their fixed blade heads to fly properly, so they screw on a penetration eating mechanical head on an arrow that isn't flying properly which compounds the problem. The other problem is that lots of guys like to shoot one pin, in that regard faster, lighter, flatter arrows have the advantage. Light arrows obviously aren't ideal when it comes to penetration, which also compounds the problem. I think that with well tuned bows and heavier arrows, mechanical heads certainly provide some advantages.

    They aren't right for everybody but if I have the choice between huge wound channels and lots of tissue damage or an exit hole, I'll pass on the exit hole almost every time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  18. BB4tw

    BB4tw Die Hard Bowhunter

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    I think the discussion on arrow weight, broadhead type, etc is fun. Especially here in a forum where everyone's experience and opinions are respected even if they don't always agree.

    Here is my take. There are only two types of bow/arrow/broadhead/shooter setups, effective and ineffective.

    When it was time to set my son up with a hunting arrow I knew that for his draw weight he would need a minimum of 10 grains per pound of draw weight or more.

    I got him set up with a finished arrow that weight right around 400gr finished. 10.8 grains per pound of draw for him. Mission accomplished.

    Then it occured to me. That same arrow fits my bow's specs as well. If that weight is effective for him, then it will only become more effective when shot from my bow. His "heavy" arrow became my "light" arrow. I found that I liked the feel and the way it shoots and flies better than the heavier setup I was using previously.

    I can say first hand that from my bow that arrow is firmly in the effective category. I don't have any experience to report from my son's setup yet.
     
  19. Rangerdan

    Rangerdan Weekend Warrior

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    ARTICLE

    Great article on arrow weight/speed/penetration and accuracy.
     
  20. michael_pearce

    michael_pearce Grizzled Veteran

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    I personally shot the HTR at 29" draw and 68.5lbs
    My arrow weight is 485gr total weight
    I do use a 50gr brass insert so I have a greater FOC
    All of that being said
    With the killzone I will rarely get a full pass through
    But I also do not expect one knowing that most of the energy of the arrow is being absorbed on impact to deploy the blades.
    Knowing your set up and capabilities is crucial.
    I shot my bear this year and passed through the arm and lower part of his chest. He ran 20 yards and stopped and I was able to put another arrow in him at 20 yards. He only ran about 20 yards from there and died.
    That arrow stayed in his off side shoulder.
    The greater the wound the faster they will bleed out.
    Wether u have a 2" entrance and no exit or a 7/8" entrance and 7/8" exit.
    We all love pass troughs but I truly fell it's more about
    " I'm a big strong guy who blows arrows right trough the deer"
    How many times have you seen some one shot a bull elk or moose and get a pass through fix blade or mech?
    There is a reason bullet manufacturers want a bullet to open up in the cavity maximum damage as fast as it can.
    So would you shot a full metal jacket or a hollow point?
     

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