Passing deer, educating them, or dumbing them down? This is something that I have put some thought to lately spurred from past experiences... The areas I hunt up here at home, these deer look up into the trees. Even fawns and yearlings.... In fact just a few days ago I had a group of 4 button bucks exit a bedding area 30 yards from my stand. I had one circle around me, now standing down wind, looking at me lip curling trying to scent me.... This was just the 3rd hunt out of this stand for the year. This was a 5 month old fawn I am talking about here. You move at all these deer up here peg you and split. Luckily I didn't bust him out of the area, but maybe made him a touch "smarter".. Down South on the public land where I hunt rarely will the deer look at you up in the tree. In fact the only one I ever remember locking eyes on me was the 9 point I shot down there in 2006. Looking at these two scenarios it doesn't "look" right, you would think it would be the other way around but it isn't. At least on my hunting areas. There is not near as much mature timber here, at home for the deer to utilize. Mostly thick cut overs in NE Ohio. On the land with huntable trees the deer have numerous encounters with stand hunters every year. They know where to expect hunters at. Whether the deer got "passed" on or a hunter botched the opportunity to kill the animal they (the deer) "learn" fast what areas are dangerous. While down south on the public this is not the case, very few people pass deer on public land here. It is the brown and down mentality. These deer haven't had the life experiences with hunters like the private land deer I hunt at home to educate them to look up. What I am getting at is, I believe "passing" deer makes them smarter rather than "dumb them down" to hunting pressure like some people say. What is your opinion?
Here in South Carolina, several of the Hunt Clubs that surround my property use those towerstands with 4 walls and a roof. They have windows that they shoot out of and generally have a swivel chair in them. Because of the very scenario you described of educating the deer...several of them actually leave a manikin or a card board cutout of a human form in the stand when it is not in use so the deer get use to seeing that shape in the blind. I saw one and asked a guy in the club about it and he said that because the deer had figured out that is was dangerous to go out into a field if someone was in the stand...the deer would come up to the edge of the field and look at the stands to see if anyone was in them..if they were they would not come out till dark.... So they started putting the dummies in and the deer have gotten use to the stands having someone in them..... I'm not into that type of hunting but Deer do get smart. SB
I couldn't agree more. I believe that every encounter with a human in a tree, whether they see you, hear you, or smell you, serves to educate that deer. My experiences have shown the same things yours have. Here at home if a deer even gets a whiff of human scent or thinks they see something in a tree they go on red alert and usually wait about 0.5 seconds before you see nothing but a white tail headed the other way. Likewise down on our lease in Brown/Pike county we got busted in the tree several times even though we weren't moving a muscle and in full camo head to toe. I could see once or twice, but it happened a LOT. The only thing I can think is that there's so much pressure down there the deer are used to looking in trees for all you guys from PA and NY who come hunt our deer. :D I grunted at a nice 130" 8 point, probably a 3 1/2 year old deer, out about 80-90 yards away in a CRP field not even looking in our direction, and that SOB turned his head and picked us off in the tree so fast you would've thought we were doing jumping jacks in our stands. It was incredible. I've also had the opportunity to hunt way down in Southern IL at Campbell's twice now in an area that receives very low bowhunting pressure and have been amazed what we can get away with in a tree. Deer down wind, under you, behind you, even looking at you that don't spook even when you're deliberately moving and trying to scare them away. Last year I had a solid 140"+ buck bust Christine and I in the tree from about 8 yards, turn and turn 10 yards, and go back to feeding on acorns. Pressure is a lot lower and encounters with people in general, let alone all of us guys up in trees, are a lot fewer.
I feel that it depends on what you call "passing" Scott. If a big 2.5 year old 8 point walks by and doesn't see, spot or hear you, then no harm no foul in my mind. But if he winds you, or spots you and starts the head bob foot stomp game then i agree, you have educated that deer. Also, i normally hunt NE Ohio like you and sometimes public and private land in southern ohio.
Not the case for private land down south i don't guess. Even being upwind and a little over 20' in the tree had two does and a faw come in looking up at me from 60 yrds or so. Never spooked 'em but they knew i was there the whole time. IMO i agree that passing on deer whether you think the deer know you are there or not (i swear they have a 6th sense ) deff makes 'em wiser, but in order to continue quality management you know what they say: you gotta let 'em go to grow
I agree with JZ. Here in the NW suburbs of Chicago the neighborhood deer don't get pressured at all by hunters. I've never had one look up unless I made a move. Likewise scent might put them on alert, but they are used to human scent and tolerate it. In the rural areas I've hunted they are way more wary of scent, and with bowhunters right next door they do look up, but usually into specific trees they have spotted hunters in before. I doubt deer look up all the time cuz they'd trip over all the stuff on the ground!
If they pass with the demeanor that they have no inclination that a human is near ie all their senses, then no I dont think we educate them at all. This is often rarely the case. If they pass by and pick up on any negative stimuli, they remember that spot, especially the older bucks that have escaped death before. Dumbing them up to me has to start when they are infants, they get used to the local farmer or land owner. They associate very little with danger in regards to humans. I think this can only be accomplished on highly micromanaged lands with strict rules and guidelines. Also places were deer are supplementally fed and learn to associate human odor with feed. As for any place that recieves moderate to heavy pressure, especially gun pressure, then there is no such thing as dumbing them up. They either learn to be very careful or die.
I've spent some time thinking back to all the times I've been picked off up in the tree. Unless I made a huge blunder or movement, the deer have all normally went back to what they were doing. Several I even killed. There was one doe many moons ago that busted me once in a tree, and then EVERY time she even came close she'd look up and pick me off from so far away, watch me & skirt well out of range. Around the places I hunt I don't think its been much of an issue with them getting wise to the trees.
My experiences have pretty much matched Ryans. The deer will come in and they know that something isn't right and look up at me in stand, do the head bob, and if I remain still, they go on with their business. I had the same group of doe do this several times this year. After that first experience, the same does would come in and scan for me in my tree. I remained still and they just kept on feeding on the apples around me. Now, I had a little spike this year that came in pretty much every time I sat in stand. He came in one morning that I was hunting before work. Well, about 30 minutes before I had to get down, he decided to bed 10 yards in front of me. I waited as long as I could and decided that I had to try to scare him away. I did a snort wheeze and he just lowered his head in between his back legs as if he was trying to hide. I did a few whistles and he looked around but didn't get up. While looking at me, I tried waving, nothing. I stood up said "Hey deer", he just laid there. Eventually I decided I just had to climb down. He didn't get up and run till my feet hit the ground. He went about 40 yards and stopped and watched me walk out of the woods. After that encounter, I had atleast a dozen more with him within 20 yards of my stand and he never even looked towards me or acted suspicious.
From what I have observed the last couple of years, a lot depends on what attitude the deer have when the come into your stand. If the deer come in relaxed and don't sense any danger, they become very comfortable with the surroundings. You can get away with a lot after the deer have been around you for a while. They seem to trust their senses that when they arrived there was no danger in the area. I had a buck bed 25 yards from me last year. After 2 hours of having him in the area I needed to leave. Much like Buck Magnet I had a hard time getting his attention and making him leave. He knew he had been in the area for a long time and there was no danger there. So he felt safe. The same with the deer in my food plots this year. I have hunted there often and up until Greg killed 2 deer in them hadn't really alarmed them there. I never got noticed up the trees right on the edge of the plots. But I did play the wind and the deer never knew I was there. Once the deer moved into the plots and got settled without anything bothering them the seemed very relaxed. Once the are in their comfort zone you can get away with quite a bit of movement without alarming them. Even if they do look up once in a while, if I froze they went right back to eating underneath me.
I concur. I always say that those urban whitetail are FAR more educated and smarter than their contry (rural) cousin.
I think it depends on whether they "recognize" you as danger or not if they spot you in a tree. I've had deer look up at me, then go about their business making scrapes or feeding, or even bedding down. I truly believe the key ingredient is if they relate what they see as danger or not. Yeah, they notice something is "different" but if they don't smell us, if we don't move and spook them.......I think often times it is merely brushed off. Now, if they look up at you (or any other hunter for that matter) and something spooks them, oh hell yeah. They've just been educated and you can bet the next time they see something in a tree they don't like, they're not gonna stick around to figure out what it is.
Jeff, its not that they are walking around with their head aimed towards the clouds, the deer here are just much more inclined to notice something in the trees and look up due to the amount of pressure these deer see each year.
Jeff I hunt area's not trees. I can tell you this, 24 years ago I could have danced the jig on our farm. Plain and simple the deer did not look up at all. 24 year later deer will look up when the sense danager, before they would not. I have taught deer in my area we hunt from trees. I have educated more deer than Harvard. The things the bugs me about passing deer is when they hang around. I want them gone, the longer they stay the more chance they have of winding me or seeing me.
I guess im on the good end of things in my area so far. I have been able to make slow movements and not get picked off at all this year. I havent even had a deer look up at me yet so far. The only time i got busted this season far was by a Doe. I was streatching, looked over my shoulder and she was staring at me. I had no clue she was behind me. She stared for a bit then went about her buisness Dont get me wrong, this has not always been the case, i have been peged many times, just having a good year.
I have the exact same thoughts as Justin and Mike, the deer around town walk around looking in the trees. I'm not going to say that they're more likely to bust you in a tree than on the ground, but I've been busted a lot less while sitting on the ground while hunting the "city slickers." I did notice also that in Kansas the deer seemed a lot more likely to pick you out in a tree than on the ground, I'm not entirely sure why. It's a possibility that due to the lack of timber in the area, a hunter in a stand is much more obvious than someone on the ground.
I don't think "passing" deer from trees makes them smarter.......I think trying to kill them and failing does. Hardly any deer get passed where I hunt........and they look up more then straight ahead. Why??? IMO it is because of all the pinheads in every other tree they walk past that they bust and snort at 10 times a day.....the guys who move around too much and pick trees where they are easily spotted and make a bunch of racket in their stands. Passing a deer means you could have killed it but chose not to.......in other words, he/she didn't know you were there. It's the guys that blow it and get busted that educate the deer to danger from above.
You took my statement to seriously, I am not saying the deer walk around looking towards the sky all the time. I am saying they have a "sense" and seem to look up many times that directly benefits their survival. The "deer looking up phenomenon" is a direct result of heavy hunting pressure. I hunt a different tree almost every sit. I use my climber 80% of the time. They still look up here regardless of the amount of trees one hunts. Deer cross multiple property lines every single day in my area resulting in multiple encounters with multiple hunters. *Directed towards no one in particular* I would say with most certainty if your deer do not look up, they are either relatively unpressured or they are killed off to fast to acquire the life experiences to condition them to do so. Pretty much what I was getting at. I am willing to bet that most deer that get "passed" by the average hunter do not end up going by with out some negative stimuli from the experience.
I agree Buckeye.... My belief is that deer like all animals that are prey learn and adapt to whatever pressure they experiance. SB
