One pin takes me out to 40 yards!?

Discussion in 'Tech Talk' started by _DANNY_, Dec 28, 2011.

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  1. _DANNY_

    _DANNY_ Weekend Warrior

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    Can someone clear this up for me. I was shooting the other day. I shot a few at 20 yards (my first pin) then shot at 30 then 40. Well I was trying to see if my first pin would take me to 40 yards. When I sighted in my bow I did the first pin at 20 yards 30 yards second pin at 40 third pin I left my fourth pin alone. I have an idea what it is but I want to here what y'all have to say. I don't have an explosive bow by all means its a 2007 or 2008 PSE super g with a 30 inch draw and set at about 60 pounds. Thanks.
     
  2. Gordon

    Gordon Newb

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    Pins

    I have the same bow with the same legnth draw. I think mine is a little older. I only have 3 pins. I have the pins set at 30,40 and 50 yards. There sighted in very well and the bow is very accurate. I hunt in NH and rarelt have a shot farther than 40 or 50 yards. I guess it depends on how far your going to shoot. There's a guy at my Rod and Gun Club that said the velosity drops alot after 60 yards so closer is better. Hope this helps. Gordon
     
  3. Swampthing

    Swampthing Weekend Warrior

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    I shoot an Oneida Eagle and have 1 pin that takes me out to 40. Shoots about 1 inch high at 10 yards and is dead on at 40.
     
  4. jmbuckhunter

    jmbuckhunter Grizzled Veteran

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    There isn't a bow made that will hit dead on at 20 yards and 40 yards using the same pin. You would have to hold your pin high at 40 yards to hit the same spot. WORD!!!
     
  5. Swampthing

    Swampthing Weekend Warrior

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    If you set the pin for 20 yards and try to shoot 40, you're correct. If you set the pin for 40 yards and shoot 20, it won't be dead on, but it can be close with a fast bow.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  6. brucelanthier

    brucelanthier Grizzled Veteran

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    What is close and what is a fast bow?
     
  7. Meathunter

    Meathunter Weekend Warrior

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    my bow shoots 302 fps with my hunting set up and I set my pin an inch high at 20 yards and it is dead on at 30. Shooting CX maima hunter 350s. Its hard for me to believe that a bow will go from 20 to 40yds with no drop off, even using a target set up.
     
  8. Swampthing

    Swampthing Weekend Warrior

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    Read my previous post. I hold about an inch or two low at 10 yards with my lone pin, which is set for 40 yards. I would consider an inch or 2 to be close.
     
  9. ILLUSION HUNTER

    ILLUSION HUNTER Weekend Warrior

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    My old bow which was a 2008 Browning Illusion. I set it at 15 yards and I could shoot to 28 yards with that pin. Which I thought was pretty good. Now I have a bowtech Invasion which should be alot faster, so I'm hoping to reach out to 35 yards on one pin. I've only shot out to 25 yards so far with no dropoff. I won't shoot any further until I get my peep sight installed. My Ibo of my Browning Illusion was 326 and shot 283 my Bowtechs IBo is 343 not sure what it actually shoots yet.
     
  10. Swampthing

    Swampthing Weekend Warrior

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    You're better off setting your pin for the further distance and shooting shorter than setting your pin for the shorter distance and shooting further.
     
  11. Muzzy Man

    Muzzy Man Grizzled Veteran

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    Regardless of your bow setup, every arrow, including yours, no matter how fast, will drop at the same speed. Arrow drop is determined by how much distance you can cover in a given length of time. The amount of drag on an arrow may be reduced which can decreases the amount of speed lost over that distance but arrow drop over time is the same for everyone. Shooting on a perfect plane from 20-40 yards is impossible unless you have some kind of planing device to overcome the drop. Some archers set up to be an inch or two high at 20-30 yards and an inch or two low at 40 and call it the same. They just use the same pin but the impact is not the same.
     
  12. range649

    range649 Newb

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    Muzzy Man is spot on here. This question arises regularly, as do claims that someone's fast bow shoots flat out to "X" yards and only needs one pin. The physics that act on an arrow are immutable. An arrow shot parallel to the ground begins to drop the moment it leaves the bow. Gravity is responsible for this. Gravity is constant. Want to know how long your arrow will stay in the air if shot parallel to the ground? Simple. Just hold an arrow at the same height and drop it. An arrow shot, or an arrow dropped will fall at the same rate. The faster the arrow is traveling, the farther it will be from the point at which it was shot before it hits the ground. Two factors act on the speed of the arrow: 1. The energy transferred to the arrow by the bow. 2. The drag created as it passes through the air.

    That's it. Fast bow + skinny arrows w/small vanes = farther point of impact. That translates to smaller pin gap; i.e., less holdover.

    Drag robs the arrow of speed allowing gravity more time to act upon it. Uphill, downhill, gravity cares not, and affects the arrow at the same rate.

    Here's my explanation for the popularity of the one pin myth. Most bows are set up such that as the arrow leaves the bow, it is not traveling parallel to the ground. It is traveling upward. The line of sight - from the archers eye, through the sights, to the target - is straight. The arrow, which is traveling in an arc, passes through the line of sight twice. First as it ascends, then after it reaches is peak and begins to descend on it's path the the ground. If you were to place a target at the first point it passes through the line of sight, and a target at the second point the arrows passes through the line of sight, it will appear that the arrow's trajectory is flat and that you can indeed shoot at any point to the farthest target with one pin. The fallacy here is that between the two targets the arrow will strike above the point of aim, and before and beyond both targets, the arrow will fall below the point of aim.

    Factor in shooter error and the power of faith, and you have bows that shoot out to 40 yards on one pin.

    The irony here is that this set up has been used for many years by experienced archers who understand this relationship between the arrow's flight and their sight pins to use fewer pins with which to shoot. Indeed, many use only one pin. But - they understand where between the two mystical points to hold under, and outside these two points, where to hold over.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  13. Muzzy Man

    Muzzy Man Grizzled Veteran

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    I am curious about this. Your pins are already 3-4 inches above your arrow which means your arrow is actually well below your point of aim. If you aim even lower, are you sure you aren't going to miss way low? I've had this problem with near straight down shots over the years and have shot right below the chest of quite a few deer. Just maybe take a shot or two to make sure your calcualtions are correct.
     
  14. Swampthing

    Swampthing Weekend Warrior

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    I'll shoot some arrows tomorrow and get back to you. It's almost "automatic " when I shoot, so I don't have to do much thinking. But when I'm sitting at the computer I get confused thinking about it.

    My peep sight is positioned above my pin. At full draw my peep is slightly higher than my pin. My rest appears to be a little bit higher than the point at which the arrow is nocked on the string, so it would be shooting slightly upwards so it should be aimed fairly close to the point of aim.
     
  15. Swampthing

    Swampthing Weekend Warrior

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    I shot and figured it out. Like I said above, my arrow is pointed slightly upwards when I hold parallel to the ground. When I shoot at 10 yards and aim right on, my arrow hits about an inch above my target. When I shoot at 20 yards, my arrow hits about 1.5 inches above my target. When I shoot at at 30 yards, my arrow hit about 1.25 inches above my target. I shot in my basement, so I was limited to 30 yards, but when I shoot 40 yards my arrow should hit my target.

    My situation is like the one Range649 explained above, but there's no power of faith or shooter error involved, it's just the way my bow is set up.
     
  16. Muzzy Man

    Muzzy Man Grizzled Veteran

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    Sounds like you've got your answer. Great work.

    Every arrow or bullet has two points where it crosses through our line of sight. That is what is known in the firearms world as "Point Blank Range". (When a projectile neither rises above nor falls below an acceptable range.) For a Moose your PBR may be larger than for a Whitetail. Yours seems to be crossing the line of sight the first time somewhere less than ten yards and again somewhere after thirty yards. Depending on your arrow speed you may be flat enough, but are you saying your arrows only drop 1.25 inches between 30 and 40. That's pretty flat shooting. If you are hitting, say, 1.5 -2.0 low at 40 that puts you somewhere plus or minus about 3-4 inches, not factoring in human error.

    I am just honestly trying to figure out how an arrow crosses an inch high at ten yards after starting 3-4 inches low and ends up only 1.5 inches high at twenty.

    Let's do away with gravity for a moment and presume the arrow had no gravity affecting it at all. Your arrow which has risen approximately 5 inches in the first ten yards would with no gravity affecting equate to 10 inches at 20, 15 inches at thirty and 20 inches at 40. Somewhere, those numbers have to be acounted for because gravity can't be ignored.

    My Hoyt doesn't shoot quite as fast (appr. 270 fps ) but those numbers seem pretty close to what I have to account for with my pins set at 20-30-40. Just something to consider. By the way; are you shooting with broadheads or field points?
     
  17. OHbowhntr

    OHbowhntr Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Sorry bud, but there are more than a few of us here that know and understand arrow ballistics, and what you're claiming AIN'T happening. You're Oneida Eagle is shooting at the very most 300fps, and at 300fps, the drop from 30-40yds is FAR more than 1.5 or 1.25 inches or whatever you're claiming. At 40yds with a 300fps projectile (arrow) considering the arrow starting out 4.5" below line of sight, you have about 20" of trajectory to deal with, meaning that once you hit line of sight you'll have 10" up and 10" down to account for. Here, try this link, it's not great, but it's something to give you a bit of guidance, it assumes the arrow is being shot at a level to the ground, therefore, it doesn't take into account the arrow rise to line of sight, or the true trajectoric arc, but if you understand ballistics at all, it gives a little guidance to put you on the right path.

    http://peteward.com/ballistic.calc.htm



    One pin to 40yds??? With an adjustable sight and dialing in the ranges.....Sure, with a fixed pin??? Not a chance, unless you consider within 4" one way or another acceptable, then it can be done, but there is a pretty significant margin of error, be it game or target shooting that is going to expose you're plan as being a WEAK one.
     
  18. range649

    range649 Newb

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    First, consider yourself fortunate to have a 30 yard basement in which to shoot.

    That seems like a very flat trajectory. Without a mechanical shooter, it is very difficult know that your arrow is level when shot. In my post, I mention shooter error. That was not intended as a slight to your skill. Simply that the slightest muscle tremor will affect the shot. That's why we look for groupings and throw out outliers. Even a few degrees deviation will have a significant effect on impact. As for my mention of faith - that was a bit of metaphor. There is a general tendency to form facts to fit a preconceived theory. That's all I meant.

    Ultimately it doesn't matter, as long as you are hitting what your aiming at repeatably - although I suspect there is another explanation.
     
  19. Hoosier Daddy

    Hoosier Daddy Weekend Warrior

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    There are two words in archery you will never get away from its ( Archers Parodox )
     
  20. ILLUSION HUNTER

    ILLUSION HUNTER Weekend Warrior

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    I found out quickly my Invasion won't shoot out to 40 with one pin. I started to sight in my tru glo range rover sight and my first pin set I wanted to sight in was at 10 to 20 yards. I actually get quite a few shots that close. But for 25 yards I had to move my pin up. I thought well that is just because I set my first pin set so close. Then I went out to 35 and I hit low so I have to move my pin again for that distance. My Invasion is 70 lb 28" draw and an ibo of 343. I'm guessing I'm shooting around 315 or so and it will take 3 pin sets for me to hit 40 yards. I use one floating pin.
     
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