Pretty much sums it up (except for little johnny and soccer moms etc...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I
So, he's a loser because of the way he treated his son. Exactly. But the reason he treated his son that way is because his son did not exemplify the traits of a "winner". And guess, what, I have seen it time and again, in Little League and youth basketball. Parents that treat their child with ridicule because they didnt "win". It truely makes me sick to my stomach. In my opinion, a lot of this mentality comes from our infatuation with professional athletes. Time and effort misspent.
You have totally misread me as a coach and as a person. Too bad. I have parents that will only let their children play in the league if they can be on my team and we have enjoyed a lot of success. Including "winning" the league. Although, our only goal was to have everyone on the team improve and have a chance to play in every game and enjoy the opportunity to play whether we won or lost. Yes, I pat my players on the back when they strike out, and then I make extra time for that kid in the batting cages and we do our best to work it out. But I will never show disappointment or be discouraged by lack of ability or productivity by one of my players unless he just doesnt give his best. By the way, if they put out the effort, everyone on my team is a winner! A lot of the coaches just hate losing to us. And guess what, there are a lot of very successful people in this world that never did learn to hit a baseball. Go figure. So, if striking out or coming in anything but first equates to being a loser, then my point is lost on you. And that is fine.
That says a lot. Hope your teams always have a "winning" season. If they like ice-cream, I'm sure they will.
Couldn't have said it any better myself, NYB. Great post. I also get sick and tired of losing being a good thing instilled in our youth. When I played ball (which was not long ago, I'm 30) we had try outs. Guess what? Not every damn kid made the team. We worked our asses off to get a starting spot. Only by the rules did some kids get a couple innings in and that was only in little league. Fletch, what are you teaching a kid when you teach him that losing is just as good as winning? I really want to know this. Is this to insure that later in life when he doesn't get that big promotion in his career that everything will be ok because he "tried" his best. I'm not saying to teach your kids to be winners at all costs without sportsmanship. But, damn, teach them to be winners and to want it. This world is a real biatch and it sure doesn't pat me on the ass when I lose.
Totally misunderstood. I never said once that I teach them that losing is just as good as winning. But my emphasis is definitely not on winning at all costs. Obviously, my players must want to win or we would never win the league. But, we do it in far different fashion than many teams that are coached by men that are trying to live their life through kids. It just makes me sick to see kids getting ripped by their parents or coaches because they made an error or because they lost. A lot more to life than athletics. Some of the most successful people in this world dont have any athletic ability. I just find it comical that so many people want to celebrate athletes and are stuck living in their "glory days". I just think its kind of sad when a bunch of middle aged men sit around and tell the same old stories about highschool sports. Look, we've nearly all been there, but most grow up and move on. My oldest son enjoys bike racing at a very high level. He just got back from racing in Spain for three weeks and has already been invited back over Spring break. The coach taking him was Lance Armstrongs junior coach. I will support him as long as he wants to race but I will never push him or be disappointed if he choses another path. Just not that big of deal to us, because we get the big picture. The odds of one of the kids in our Little League making a living playing ball is nearly zilch. So lighten up and accept the fact that what the kids really need is some motivation to at least try to do their best, enjoy their successes and dont dwell on the failures. By the way, what do you suggest they do later in life if they dont get that big promotion. Consider themselves to be "losers" and give up? You also may want to send a quick note to the International Olympic Committee and tell them how much money they could save by not awarding Silver or Bronze medals. Why celebrate a loser?
So Jeff, how do you hope to place in the next triathalon ?? If you finish, have you achieved a reasonable goal? If you cant finish, are you a loser? Will you ever try again?
Nope. Winners don't give up. They find in themselves why they failed and they rise to the occasion. People who are taught that losing is acceptable are usually quiters. I see what your saying, Fletch. I also think you misunderstand what we are saying. We are not reliving our glory days through our kids. I know I'm not through my sons T-ball league. My oldest son who is 7 has no desire to play sports. None at all. He would rather go to Science Camp in the summer. You know what? I'm right there with him and support him all the way. My youngest son is 5 and could care less about a book and carries around his glove and ball every where he goes. My challange is to change his attitude now or I know his mother and I have long row to hoe. I would rather see him succeed through education. I don't think it is right to teach kids that winning is not what sports is about. There are life lessons taught in sports. I'm sure you will agree. Accepting failure should not be one of them. Oh, to answer your Olympic question.....yes, who gives a crap about 2nd or 3rd place. I bet if you asked the athletes that participate over 90% would agree with my statement.
I played many sports for a long time, and at a decent level. How hard is it for a coach to not only be demanding yet nurturing? Let me tell you a short story of a young man. This guy was pushed hard athletically by his father, harder than any other kid he knew. He was first team all state in two different sports in highschool and was the AA football defensive player of the year in the state of Virginia his senior year. Once he entered college he was one of about 4 true freshman out of 30 that was set to see action in a game their freshman year. Then he tore both ACL's in two different knees, then cartilage, then an MCL. He had put all of his eggs in one basket. So he went from the freshman golden boy to a person that none of the big tough guy coaches would even talk with when he walked down the hallway. That is until it took him 4 years of hardwork to return to a high level of play. Then the shallow minded, non-nurturing coaches who were so dang tough finally starting to talk to him again. Yet what they did not understand is that the player did not want to speak with them, because when he was down and out for 3-4 years none of them asked him how he was doing, asking him about his mental framework, asking him what he wanted to achieve in life. ALL they wanted to talk about was winning and they treated players accordingly. The player learned a very hard lesson through all of this......most coaches only care about winning and when that is all you care about, you eventually DO NOT get the best out of your players. As a coach you must be tough and demanding yet have a side that allows and understands that being a coach is just like being a teacher. Being a coach is not about being a God like figure. Too many coaches have a god like mentality and that is an absolute joke to think that they are that PRETENTIOUS. So here is my take, I will push my kids to be winners, to understand that one should want to win. But I will also be a nurturer when the times are bad by patting them on the back when they lose as long as I know they put in the effort, NOT talking with them about sports when I sense the need, and WILL teach them not to put all their eggs in one basket because life is so much more than just a game. The lessons that should be learned through sports is to get the job done even when you are hurt, ill, sick, have doubt, chaos erupts.....to strive for greatness without forgetting about who you are inside, without giving up what is right and what is wrong, basically winning without selling your soul to the devil.
Totally misunderstood. I never said once that I teach them that losing is just as good as winning. But my emphasis is definitely not on winning at all costs. Obviously, my players must want to win or we would never win the league. But, we do it in far different fashion than many teams that are coached by men that are trying to live their life through kids. I hate those guys, too. Pretty sad. It just makes me sick to see kids getting ripped by their parents or coaches because they made an error or because they lost. Me, too. Common ground. A lot more to life than athletics. Some of the most successful people in this world dont have any athletic ability. I just find it comical that so many people want to celebrate athletes and are stuck living in their "glory days". I just think its kind of sad when a bunch of middle aged men sit around and tell the same old stories about highschool sports. We're more alike than it appears, then. I hate that, too! Look, we've nearly all been there, but most grow up and move on. Been where? My oldest son enjoys bike racing at a very high level. He just got back from racing in Spain for three weeks and has already been invited back over Spring break. The coach taking him was Lance Armstrongs junior coach. Very cool about your son. What's his coach's name? I will support him as long as he wants to race but I will never push him or be disappointed if he choses another path. Just not that big of deal to us, because we get the big picture. Which is??? The odds of one of the kids in our Little League making a living playing ball is nearly zilch. So lighten up and accept the fact that what the kids really need is some motivation to at least try to do their best, enjoy their successes and dont dwell on the failures. You lost me, here. ALL I think these guys are trying to say is.....there must be a line of demarcation between winning and losing. And, you can't celebrate the losing or treat it as if it didn't happen. It did. By the way, what do you suggest they do later in life if they dont get that big promotion. Consider themselves to be "losers" and give up? No. But you knew that. You expect them to try hard NOT to lose the promotion. But, they've learned at an early age that they're not always going to have something handed to them. They're going to be more competitive, and hopefully thwart a bad situation. You also may want to send a quick note to the International Olympic Committee and tell them how much money they could save by not awarding Silver or Bronze medals. Why celebrate a loser? You're having trouble with the phrase "second place = first loser". Nobody's saying second place is something to be ashamed of. Just realize there's two possible reasons you finished second (or 77th). 1. You didn't prepare or compete hard enough. 2. Your opponent was better prepared; a better gifted opponent or tried harder than you.
So Jeff, how do you hope to place in the next triathalon ?? At the goal (or better) that I set for myself, based on my training time availability and my desire. If you finish, have you achieved a reasonable goal? No. If I thought "just finishing the distance" was a goal, I'd move up in distance. I wanna go faster. If you cant finish, are you a loser? Will you ever try again? If I can't finish, it'll be due to an injury or a mechanical failure. I wouldn't say someone who gets hurt or breaks a chain (ex.) is a "loser". In fact....I can't recall the last time I called someone who gave thier all a "loser". Will I try again if I don't win? I won't unless I have a goal to better my performance. Me and sports have a hard time on a "just dating" level. I'm over the courtship pretty quickly and I'm trying to nail her after a few dates. In other words.....I'm OK with losing (see previous post) if I learn something. But, you can stick the "Participant" medal up your ass. It means NOTHING to me.
Do you let them know this? And put emphasis on it? Why is it obvious? I agree. That is pretty lame. hmmmm I'll get back to yo on that one. One thing we agree on. I can assure you I'm not one of the glory day people. One of my pet peeves are glory day people. High School and college are long over. Give up = loser Didn't get the promotion = lost it Compete and try harder/get it next time= winner. Thats actually a good point.
Fletch: The bottom line of what everyone's trying to share with you is this....... If we let the line of demarcation get "fuzzy" between winning and losing, we're doing our kids a dis-service. The real world is not that way. Losing is a part of life. Accepting it (for the right reasons) builds character. Accepting it as a way of life is detrimental to character. Losing is contagious.
Look, my coaching (sports/life) style is simply to use positive reinforcement rather than blow a gasket and get negative. Also, I probably put less emphasis on winning than a lot of people and more emphasis on fundamentals and giving your best effort to the task at hand. It's always been my experience that this model produces less pressure and the outcome is usually better, ie: (we win). Far from producing the next generation of pantywaist losers you guys have painted a picture of. I also believe that if you have to be dishonest or "bend" the rules to win, you really haven't won, and in no way should be celebrated as a champion. And the example set is a poor one. Maybe Jeter's example that started this whole thing is not a good one. But, in my mind, if anyone has to fake getting hit by a pitch, you really havent earned first base. Would you fake a resume to land a great job and consider yourself successful? I would hope not. If you are not the CEO of your company, are you a loser? I won my club championship last year and got second this year. Am I a loser? I think we agree on a lot of points, except how important the actual win is in most cases. I would much rather a kid be a "participant" than sit at home watching sports from the sofa. Actually, that goes for adults too. And I wont begrudge the worst athlete on the planet for trying.
