Based on the fact there are 50 post in the kill/hunt forum for every 1 post in the habitat forum nope, it's all good.
Why do you think you need to improve the habitat of an animal that has survived in North America for 4 million years? Exotic species, cwd, etc.?
The deer population 80 years ago let alone 4 million years ago were a fraction of today's numbers. I guess if a guy is good with 5 dpsm then no worries. Does the CRP program benefit all wildlife and soil conservation? On the other hand many hunters are ignorant to overpopulation and carrying capacity. Habitat improvement benefits all wildlife. Don't confuse TDM with QDM which was the original mistake of this thread.
We improve it for us. Food plots and such are more for man than the deer. I have 2. I use them as a tool to harvest deer. Improving the habitat improves my hunts. Making water holes, hacking & squirting, food plots, hinge cutting, etc. is great to predetermine some furure hunts and has partial control of small instances, but I view it more of a tactic than improving the quality of the herd. I feel the best habitat for a wild free ranging deer herd would be 100% neglect. It is just my opinion. But no one makes money on this, do they?
Is every deer killed on federal, state & county land unhealthy? Preacher Tony is about to make fun of me.
Not you It's the people that think QUANTITY leads to a healthier herd, when in fact, it is just the opposite ... it does lead to more deer for a hunter to shoot tho
I don't believe there was any 'original' mistake in this thread as to QDM vs TDM. If 5 dpsm is what is the natural carrying capacity of an area then that should be fine with anyone. What makes you think you are right to manipulate the environment to benefit your own goals of more 'Quality' deer. Adding exotic 'Norway Spruce' is not beneficial to the natural environment contrary to your belief. If you are planting for thermal cover why didn't you use native species? Why was it even necessary if you need to harvest so many does to keep the population at the carrying capacity of an area that is already being manipulated to increase that carrying capacity....why not just let mother nature and winterkill do their own job? Why should the neighbor have to abide by your belief that there should be so many bucks per does...or should have to pass on younger bucks. BTW-apple trees as well are non-native having been brought here by the European settlers...why do you feel the need to introduce/add unnatural food sources into the equation of so called Quality Deer Management? Why the antler size restrictions...and really what is wrong with a smaller, younger, and more vigorous herd(1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks can breed just as well as older bucks if given the chance). I can tell you why...you are not really in this for the deer's benefit...you are in this QDM thing for your own benefit. More better(?) bucks for you and your family/friends to hunt/harvest. That pretty much fits the definition of selfish...and all in all, that fits in with the title of this thread.
Wisconsin has had spruce/pine varieties for a really long time. The DNR has a published list, post ice age, of native species(trees/shrubs) which I adhere to. I have apple trees planted in 1860 from the homesteaders.Habitat has changed since the ice age. The enviorment has already been manipulated with corn/bean ag fields. The neighbors refuse to shoot does in the highest dpsm dmu in probably the country. A choose not to watch dozens of deer die a slow 6 week winterkill death. If that doesn't bother you touche. Antler sized restrictions? Where did that come from? After 37 years I gave up 20 years ago caring what the neighbors do, shoot or think. I don't care to see my hardwoods browse decimated and find dozens of winterkill deer. My land, my choice.
Believe its better for my personal use? Yes. Better for the deer and other animals? Yes. Better for the earth itself? No. We live in a farming age where we put non native crops in the ground and make them grow where they normally wouldn't. We use Lime and fertilizer to make them grow. Lots of fertilizer. Polluting the water while were at it. Is that natural? No. So, we're manipulating Mother Nature and growing what we want to grow for our own reasons. Is that leaving things better than we found them? I think you know the answer to that.
There was an 80 for sale very close to us recently. There is only 1 80 in between us an it. We will most likely own the 80 between sometime in the future. I told Brad about it (BJE80) but he had already bought his land and it was about an hour farther than his wife wanted to drive.
Yep! That way we don't have to ***** about what the neighbors are doing and just keep most of the deer on our land.
Well I guess you're welcome to do the earth a favor and jump off a cliff at any time then, :p Water pollution is natural, what do you think happened to all the ground water and streams with tens of millions of head of bison roaming the plains...erosion and crap didn't occur? The atmosphere is 78% N. P and K are naturally occuring as well as lime...so all these are "native" supplements. I practice cover cropping and I grow NWSG in buffers as well as diverse native mixes in some of the cover crops. I build soil here and capture carbon and fixate it in the soil...darn right I know the answer to that.... All natural isn't always such a great thing all the way around...it's completely over rated. It's interesting to hear agriculture brought into this when cities are the biggest polluting scab on the landscape imaginable.
Antler size restrictions as a generalization(you were complaining about the neighbors shooting 2.5 year olds or only 110 inches)...how else do/can the states regulate what buck gets shot(you can't pull their teeth before you shoot)? These regulations are what the outspoken proponents of QDM And TDM have been pushing for. Anyway - what are you complaining about? You have plenty of does you can shoot to fill the freezer and then some. Do you need to shoot a 150 class buck at the minimum to make your season complete? I've only taken 4 bucks(none even remotely close to 150 class) in the last 10 years and I didn't shoot at any bucks for 6 of those years though I had plenty of opportunities to take them(passing on 10-20 total per year). I don't man...I am not here to start a p!#$!ng match - you and I prob'ly have more in common about managing lands for deer than it is coming across as. The big reason I did not shoot bucks and shot a ton of does for those 10 years is because of overbrowse problems on our property. But I do not pretend that what I am doing is just for the benefit of the deer or animals...it is at least as much to with my own ability to harvest and eat those animals - or get pics etc. I said it at the beginning - I am selfish...I want to shoot that big smart old buck myself and would rather the neighbor shot the dumb spike(enough of them will survive - they always have), filled his tag and is out of the woods for the rest of season. but couple other quick points: -you could have planted native conifers(who cares if non native conifers have been here for a really long time...so has buckthorn and Japanese barberry) -we have a ton of apple trees in the old cow pastures here...we do not plant them or protect them. -you have a choice of trying to return the land you work with back to natural vegetation or keep the status quo(that is your choice) -we prob'ly have 3 times the amount of winter-kill that you do...but actually these days those deer are being killed by the wolves, yotes, or bobcats before the starvation get them...and no I don't like to see it but it is what it is. I try to shoot as many does as I possibly legally can and usually hold one tag for a good buck until the mid-point of Dec where I will try not to shoot a buck as many have already dropped antlers.
It would only be doing the earth a favor if you jumped with me. Oh, I forgot.......:p Do you honestly believe you're building soil? Do you know that your losing organic matter every time you work the ground up? Do you know how long it takes to build up 1" of topsoil? Yeah, all natural is horrible. That dumb ***** Mother Nature has no clue what shes doing. Without us, the earth would die! Ag was brought into it because that was part of the topic, big cities have nothing to do with QDM and manipulating the land for our deer hunting enjoyment. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to change my farming or food plotting practices just because its not natural. But, I'm a realist and know what we're doing to the earth. But, after we're long gone she'll heal herself up and it will be like we were never here.
