I have seen a lot of discussion over the years on 2nd and third axis, but it's not often that people share a sure fire way of actually adjusting and making sure they are set properly. I thought I would share what I do and what tools I use to adjust my 2nd and 3rd axis. The methods and tools I use for this have been taught to me by competive (locally and nationally) field archers, where you are shooting up and down hill out to 80 yards. 2nd and 3rd axis are also important for those of us that shoot 3D, hunt, or participate in any other venue where up and downhill shots outside of 20 yards may be presented. If you are going to look at and need to trust that bubble on your site, this is EXTREMELY important. A lot of people feel that this may be stuff that doesn't apply to hunters. I disagree strongly, especially for those of us that hunt from trees, where nearly every shot is going to be on a downhill angle. It may not be easily measurable at 20 yards, but at 30+ yards.........these adjustments do matter. A properly set sight at 30 yards can easily mean the difference between a wounded animal, and one that only goes 50 yards. On the 3D course it can easily mean the difference between a 10 and an 8. The tools I use for this are a HTM string level kit, and the Medicine Stone Super Tuner bow vise. Both of these are fairly pricey items, but are well worth it in my opinion. No comments on the messy bench, one of these days I will get around to building my dream bench setup but for now this works. :d So first step in the process, I take the bow and attach to the steel dowel rod that goes into the Medicine Stone vise. It attaches to the bow in the front stabilizer hole. Second step, I put the HTM string level to my string, and adjust the bow side to side, and front to back in the vise to make sure the levels are centered on both of these planes. I then set the 2nd axis on the sight so that it is in the same position as the HTM bubble that follows that same plane. Different sights will adjust in different ways, the Spot Hogg runs on a dual worm drive type setup that is micro adjust and pretty slick. Once the 2nd axis on the sight is in alignment with that bubble on the HTM level, I then loosen the vise's 3rd axis travel and tip the bow forward and back in the vise to make sure that bubble on my sight doesn't move side to side. If it does, I adjust the sight accordingly until that bubble movement disappears. Again, different sights adjust this in different ways, but the Spot Hogg also uses a dual worm drive assembly for this adjustment also. And that's how I do it. A quick video showing all these things in action.........
Great post!! The video and pictures really help simplify this process. Since I am pretty fanatical about bow tuning and precision, I really need to pick up a bow vise and "good" string level in order to properly set 2nd and 3rd Axis on my bow. I had an idea of how to do it, just didn't have the proper tools. Hopefully others take some time to set up their bow sight properly.
Definetly a great video and pictures. I am mechanically included and usually let the guy at my local shop do all work on my bow but I think that I am going to start learning how to do my own work! This will definetly help!
Excellent post, Matt. That really helps provide a great visualization to what I've read about 3rd axis tuning. Do you find yourself needing to adjust 4th axis much, Matt, or are most bow/sight bars relatively level and flush keeping the sight plane perpendicular to the arrows path?
I think 4th axis is something people write about to make themselves sound like they know what they are doing.......:evil:. I know what it is, understand the concept, however the people that I have learned most of what I know from don't bother with it. I don't either. It hasn't stopped me from shooting 550+ games on the field archery course, and if it doesn't affect me there I'm not gonna worry about it for 3D or hunting. Just my personal thoughts......
Good stuff, Matt. Quick question for you... do you feel you could do this using an "ordinary" vise such as Apple's? While I love your tools (and wished I'd known about them while I was in the process of building my home shop), I'm thinking I could put my bow in my Apple vise, and then loosen the screw which allows the bow to rotate on the same plane that yours does and check it very similarly.
So what do you do if you are shooting a single cam that has a string path that isn't vertical with the riser? This would you have you holding the bow with a cant,wouldn't it? Or you prefer a little cant in your bow when shooting(but the string path IS vertical)? Granted,this isn't what most of us would call the best way but many still prefer a little cant. What you are describing will work but may not be the best way to set it up on some types of bows.IMO,The path of the arrow is what matters and that is what the 3rd needs to be square to.
How would you do it then? Just curious. My suggestion is to use my method outlined above and then test it under a real life scenario. I am yet to see this method on any bow not keep my arrows in a NFAA 5 ring on a field/hunter face when walking back up a hill, but if it didn't I would certainly consider other options. If this method and tool worked well enough for Jim Depart to win NFAA Outdoor Nationals in Pro FS, it's good enough for me. If I felt that actual testing produced less than desirable results, you could certainly run a level from limb pocket to limb pocket, or better yet down the surface of the riser where the sight mounts. With that said, after tuning a good 15+ of my own personal bows using the method described above, and countless others bows..........and testing them in real world conditions after.....I'm yet to see a scenario where this method didn't work.
Greg: I also have the Apple vise. It's tough to say if it would work or not to be honest, because that vise is only as accurate as the guy that was welding it together. Also, it would be easy to put the bow in the vise wrong so it is c0cked a bit on an angle and I'm not sure what would happen with it then. Also, you would need to find a spot to find a reading on the vise with a level to make sure it is rotating on a single plane. In short, you could give it a shot and it may get you pretty close, but I would definitely test it under real life conditions after. I would not trust the Apple's results without this. Edit - profanity filter replaced c0cked with roostered..........lol. :d
Matt, What about the Cobra Bow Vise? I'm sure you have seen it, but here is a reference photo: http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_417946_imageset_01? Would this be a better alternative to the Apple Vise, but a little friendly on the wallet as opposed to the Medicine Stone Super Tuner?
I do agree that you test in real life conditions,that is where shooter induced torque and actuall variences in shooter setups and equipment will show. You have already said you don't agree with the 4rth axis being neccesary but imo,when you use the 4rth as a REFERENCE(4rth means noting in itself)you get square to the arrow's path.How do you think they set for 3rd axis before the sights actually had that adjustment? I was shown this method way before there was a product on the market to adjust the 4rth.This person has some pretty good credentials(world record students and bows tuned/setup by him) and I have found it to be a very accurate way to set it. I will soon have a tool to set the 3rd to the path of the arrow bypassing the 4rth all together but that idea is still in my head but I have purchased the materials to build it.I won't market it most likely because you can see there has to be a market for it and most don't think they need it. Your form and equipment allow this method to work well for you but for some,it won't work nearly as well.It is like any other tuning and setup method,will work well for some but not for all imo.
I'd rather know my equipment was spot-on and work on my form than vice versa, but that's just me. You mentioned the way I set my second axis there, too... with a long carpenter's level running from limb pocket to limb pocket.
That's just it,some equipment doesn't allow for this method to work.Many bows on the market do not have vertical string path,what then? You will be setting the bow up at a cant. There just needs to be some level of knowledge behind these techniques and tools to know if they will work.We are getting too wrapped up on the tools and are forgetting the why's and what fors.The whole idea behind the 3rd axis is to square the bubble with the arrow's path,these tools are counting on the string to be square with it(arrows path),but that isn't always a given,even though it should be.This is why I state that his form and equipment allow it to work,he uses upper end equipment that is designed for targets for the most part and has GREAT form,which eliminates much of the shooter induced torque. Hope this isn't taked as a stab at RJ,nothing could be further from the truth.I highly respect his ability as an archer and tuner,I just felt that a little more info needs to be given when discussing this matter.
