Heavy arrows and point of diminishing returns?

Take it at a pace you are comfortable with, but for the hunting you describe, I think you will see more benefit than not for working into heavier arrows.

 

A short draw does not have anything to do with your arrow speed on a 500gr arrow. Or a 350gr arrow. It's your 60# draw weight and your bow.

The thing is, you are more limited by the light poundage than anything else. Say you have a uber-adjustable bow. You could set it up for a 31" draw at a 60# bow and a 450gr arrow arrow is going to have the same flight trajectory as if it was a 26" 450 gr arrow shot out of the same bow set up for the shorter draw.

So long as arrow mass and velocity remain the same so shall the trajectory (aside from extreme distance/wing shear.) Shaft length has nothing to do with it.

 

These are all valid points, however, I don’t think this discussion is driven by skill or technological advantage, but rather a moral angle. I personally would rather not hit a deer in the shoulder, wound it, have it die a miserable death, and not recover it. Since the proper bow hunting tools are out there to help protect against this, I choose to use them.

As to the statement of people wounding deer with heavy arrows, you can literally calculate the momentum of your arrows and know for a fact that certain setups will go through certain bones. There is loads of research from Dr. Ashby and ranch fairy proving the results of certain arrow setups and their effectiveness against deer shoulders. So I don’t think the heavy arrow crowd is going to have problems when hitting shoulders, unless there’s another factor you’re alluding to.

Obviously this is a personal choice for everyone and I’m not gonna knock someone for using what they think works best. I will advocate for what I think the best research points to though.

 

Check out the video since you are concern about draw weight and length. At 11:10 the draw weight is specified at 41lbs at 25." Not sure of arrow weight but she shooting a Valkyrie Blood Eagle Broadhead. From the video, I am pretty sure it is the 175 grain model which means her arrow weight is probably 500+. The arrow passes through and buries 6-8" deep in the ground.



https://valkyriearchery.com/shop/bloodeagles/

 

that is a heavy ass arrow for 41# and 25" draw...wow

 

yes i get that but, the short draw length is where the power stroke comes from. so if a guy pulling 60# with a 30" draw length with 450 gr arrow he is going to get way more velocity than me with a 450 gr arrow at 26.5" draw length/speed. ke/ mo... correct?

 

Shorter draw/slower velocity, the more critical significant arrow weight and broadhead design becomes.

 

Depends on the bows, I would guess. Plenty of slow long draw bows out there and at least a few fast shorties.
I am dating myself but I remember when the eXpedition SD (short draw) first came out maybe 10 years ago and they were pretty fast even at light DW.

 

I didn't go heavier and increase my FOC to shoot at bone or make up for some lack of skill or take some short cut. I would hope that nobody is trying to intentionally hit bone in an effort to make a kill. I wonder how many mech and rage shooters this year will accidentally hit a bone, or have a failed opening that will result in a wounded deer in an effort to get that "red carpet" or "giant hole" on one side of the deer.

 

I understand for some, it's perceived as a moral angle. However, if we're being honest with ourselves, we know there are plenty of people out there who will use the fact that they're shooting a heavy arrow to take shots they shouldn't be taking with a bow. The same way we have people do it with crossbows. People tend to get an inflated sense of what they can accomplish when they get fancy new toys.

Also, I believe that many more deer are wounded by shots that are further back than further forward. I've been around a lot of bowhunters, watched a lot of videos, and talked to a lot of people who guide professionally, and they all say the same thing. When we miss, we miss back more often than not. While my evidence is anecdotal, I do believe it is accurate.

So while shooting a heavy arrow with a fixed blade head offers more protection against shoulder shots, shooting an arrow with a large cutting diameter mechanical offers more protection against shots that are further back by opening up a larger wound. And since I believe most poor shots are further back, it could be argued that a larger diameter mechanical head becomes a better moral decision.

I don't believe there are any certainties in bowhunting - regardless of whatever calculations are made. Animals are almost always in the process of moving when they are struck by an arrow. Hide and muscle are pulling the arrow as it enters, and bones are moving at odd angles as the animal attempts to duck and flee. While it may be easier to guarantee full shoulder penetration on a static target, I just don't buy it 100% of the time on a live animal.

When it comes to shoulders, we also need to agree that only a portion of it allows for enough penetration to cleanly kill an animal. Hit too low and you're in for a whole different outcome. With a mechanical and/or light arrow, it virtually bounces off a low shoulder hit. With a heavy arrow and good fixed blade, you're likely to break some stuff, but not kill the animal cleanly. In which case, the morality issue arises again.

I would put money on the fact that there are more than a few deer who have suffered broken legs/shoulders and died slow deaths from heavy arrow impacts.

100% agree with you. My issue has never been with heavy arrows,, but rather this cult-like following of people who make it seem like anything short of 600 grains and a single bevel head is unethical or not an "adult" arrow setup.

I've had people call and message me because they're worried about whether or not their arrow is heavy enough - in spite of the fact they've never had an issue with killing deer dead as a doorknob. It's out of control.

 

We've had people on this forum, in this thread even, who have admitted to shooting deer directly in the shoulder when that's the only shot presented to them. Hope all you want, it's happening.

Probably the same amount of fixed blade shooters that are going to gut shoot a deer and wish they had a "giant hole" when the blood trail runs out.

Point being - there is no perfect solution. You can be set up to break bone, set up to punch giant holes, or end up somewhere in the middle. The key to it all is shooting them in the right place to begin with. If we all spent as much time practicing shooting as we do debating arrow weight on the internet, there would be more dead deer in the world.

 

Absolutely. I've put in more time shooting this year than ever regardless of my setup and agree there is no perfect solution. I just want to get close, make a true, ethical vitals shot and not have to track a wounded animal for a country mile.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Bowhunting.com Forums mobile app

 

Well said, that should be all of our aim.

 

yeh I never try to shoot a shoulder no matter what head. I know the handicaps I have. and Like justin said, most of my shots that were not perfect were a touch too far back. and that's why I really like the Rage heads...I am being honest. Call it a band aid or crutch if you will, but I know that if I do hit a touch back there is a very good chance that I am getting that deer. I have killed 64 whitetails with a bow 60%+ have been with rage heads and the shots that were not as desirable have allowed me to recover them. Sometimes I make a great shot, sometimes I don't. I ain't a target shooter Im just a bowhunter of 30 years.. learned a lot of lessons the hard way. I have no problems with fixed heads, killed many with those too, I just feel better with a mechanical that cut wide...with that said, I also want make sure I have the set up to do so.

 

I try to get bows in that 335-350 ish IBO to compensate. my current bow is a Vertix at 343 fps. I think I am around 266+/-

 

If you're up that close to 270 you should be fine with a 450-500 grain Arrow. I'm right at 270, 31"shafts shooting 520gr and I'm 2 inches high at 20, dead on a 30, and about 4 inches low at 40

 

Im going to look really hard next year at a heavier arrow.. somewhere in that 430-450 ish range if things don;'t seem to work for me this year.funny thing is, I am shooting a heavier arrow now then I was when i was shooting 70+lbs. for years I shot 360-375 gr with 70+..not once did I fail to get a pass through. except for two shoulder hits and one spine hit. since moving to 60#, I had 2 not completely pass through, arrow sticking out of both sides. those were with the standard 2" two blade rage. last year I had one shot on a deer and it passed through with the same arrow at 27 yds but with a 1.5" rage. this year I have increased 15 grains and stayed with the 1.5" rage and went to the smaller diameter axis arrows.. draw weight 61#. see how things workout. I have no doubts about pass throughs in most situations. most I said..