Heavy Arrow Setup

Discussion in 'Tech Talk' started by frankmcd, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. dnoodles

    dnoodles Grizzled Veteran

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    I shoot the 100gr ones with 75gr top hats and 15gr footers and they are damn near armor piercing. Never had a tip/ferrule bend. Blades get replaced but that's normal on most any mech.
     
  2. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    Yeah, not sure I'll make a switch, but my Black Eagle Deep Impacts don't have the little insert thing installed to add interior weights so if I made the switch it would be purely a 75gr loss - not sure I want to do that. I do like how those things look and perform from limited trusted sources.
     
  3. Mod-it

    Mod-it Die Hard Bowhunter

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    This "discussion" again. (walks to kitchen to get some popcorn going).

    All I'll say is mechanicals must steal a heck of a lot of momentum for people to need such heavy arrows as I hear discussed these days.
    I understand a heavy setup for traditional bows, or others having to use lower poundage compounds (women, children), but I've been watching 400 grain arrows launched at 65-70 lbs from a modern compound zip through elk for 27 years now with a fixed head.
    I have zero experience with mechanicals, they are the devil to Idaho law makers apparently...as are even lighted nocks. Apparently none of them have any archery experience or deductive reasoning skills, nor are they smart enough to get someone that does to help them understand things...but I digress.
    The #1 reason I've seen for poor shot placement and the animal being lost is from a "forced" shot being taken. Too far, wrong angle, animal too alert, not a clear enough window to shoot through. I have not seen this one in person since I don't do a ton of whitetail deer hunting with a bow, but I'd bet the #2 reason for whitetail is them "jumping the string".
    My hunting methods make me much prefer a balanced setup. "Balanced" for me is different than say Justin, who I'm picking on as a comparison.
    I shoot a 27.5" DL and Justin is around 29" I believe I saw him say at some point. That gives him around an 18 fps advantage just in itself. Also the majority of my hunting is run-n-gun elk and it greatly increases my odds of putting one in the freezer if I'm capable of judging the yardage without using a rangefinder, about 50% of the time anyway.
    My current setup spits a 403 grain fixed BH arrow at 277 fps. If I misjudge the yardage by a whole 5 yards, out to 35 yards that is just a 3" high/low difference with my pin gap. Works for me. ZERO concern the arrow won't make two holes if the near or far side shoulder isn't hit. I do prefer when there are two holes in them, but have had no issues tracking and recovering quartered away elk that the arrow stopped in the far side shoulder.

    This next part may trigger some.
    The more I read the more I think:
    1. Many aren't very good shots in the heat of the moment. Not enough practice, poor form (for example dropped bow arm rather than bending at the waist), or just plain bad "buck fever".
    2. Most don't tune their setup very well. Big penetration stealer.
    3. Most aim like they are holding a rifle, super tight to the shoulder a quarter of the way up. Then they hit the shoulder and lose one so they shy away from it and hit many too far back from there on.
    4. Most can't resist taking "forced" shots, for any number of reasons.
    5. Most do not have any kind of decent tracking skills/knowledge.

    There are many different types of people with widely varying skills and specs. This argument is exactly the same as the .300 Win Mag vs. .243 "best" for deer.
    As always it comes down to shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Period.
    Oh hey, my popcorn is ready.
     
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  4. Fix

    Fix Grizzled Veteran

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    I can't wait for overdraws to come back. At least then maybe we can put this to bed and argue that.
     
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  5. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    Honestly I don't see much argument about it. Logically there are positives and negatives to any type of arrow build, something I believe everyone agrees. The issue is with folks that go so far as to think or claim ONLY their preferred build is lethal....which is just not the case.

    I'd much rather someone prefer light arrows for flatter shots, than they say they use or prefer mechanicals because they cannot get fixed to fly right - that's just ignorance and ignoring actual true issues.
     
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  6. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    I have never had an issue getting fixed heads to fly with my fp. I choose to hunt with mech because I admit that I am not the greatest of shots, average at best and yes, they have saved me more than once. I love the damage a Rage head causes. My arrows, well they work out to be what they are. I do the whole heavy insert/outsert , tubes, etc.. I just get what I get right now. But I am tinkering
     
  7. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    To be fair, devastating results are achieved with a somewhat heavy or truly heavy set up tipped with a mechanical - of course so long as hard bone isn't impacted and someone has no hesitation of mechs.
     
  8. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    I would say that out of the 65 bow kills I have, 50 of them have been with a Rage head...everyone of them were devastating.. If I hit scapula, it was not good. Like I said, I tend to shoot too high or too far back when I mess up, a 1.5-2" cut has done well for me. even with sub 400 gr arrows.
     
  9. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    Honestly even if a mechanical blade fails or a scapula snaps those flimsy blades off, a well built arrow should still be able to punch through it somewhat...and a lodged arrow even without a broadhead churning the insides up with each step will kill a deer.

    Take @Justin and his set up...it isn't insanely heavy, but is heavier than most guys that hit the woods...I'd bet sub 25 yards, he could beat the blade of a shoulder enough even with a killzone or big mechanical enough to kill the deer. *Now I say that, but pray he never has to see if I'm right LOL
     
  10. Justin

    Justin Administrator

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    I'm not sure a Killzone is going to break through the scapula of a mature Midwestern buck. Maybe a small buck or a doe, but a big whitetail is darn near a different animal entirely. I'd give a Spitfire a much better chance of getting through. Killzones, Rage, and other "correct opening" mechanicals aren't my favorite. I prefer the Spitfire "over the top" design. I've had much better luck with overall penetration on those broadheads.
     
  11. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    Well I can tell you that, for a fact, a 2" rage and a 375ish gr arrow at 70+ lbs 15-20 yds did NOT make it through the scapula for me. It happened twice, many years apart. . but other than that, my penetration has been excellent. now understand, I only have a 26.5" draw so i am behind on the power stroke.
     
  12. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    Hang on...I did mix up the head styles, thanks for the correction. Clearly illustrating my ignorance to mechanicals LOL
     
  13. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Good post and a choice I made a couple years ago when I switched from a fixed head, Slick Trick, to a Rage Trypan. I personally have never shot an ultra heavy arrow for whitetails. I simply don't see the need. As Justin pointed out with his original post, there is a point of negative returns when it comes to arrow weight. I have blown through the scapula with mechanicals and fixed on two deer in my life.. both died within sight. These deer were both shot with arrow weights of 380 and 410 grains. I have also seen the flip side, where a fixed head and a slightly heavier arrow bailed me out on a poor shot I made on a huge bodied midwest deer a few years ago. I shot a little and forward. The buck made it about 50 yards on two completely shattered front legs before expiring. I was astonished that a 430 grain arrow with a Slick Trick did that and the head was no worse for wear with the exception of the blades being junked.

    I agree with Justin, those types of shots like I mentioned aren't the norm and your building arrows for a very small area on a deer. I love a good pass through and will always promote a bow and arrow combination that will yield pass throughs on most shots. But as was said earlier, a deer's chest is not that wide and I'd venture to say most setups out of todays bows will have zero issue zipping through a whitetail when heavy bone isn't involved. But how dead do you want the dirt on the other side?

    Something that hasn't been mentioned here is how well tuned your bow is to your setup. I shoot mechanicals now, but I still spend my summer tuning with fixed heads. My belief is that if I can get the very best tune possible to where I can shoot fixed heads and field points together out to 60-70 yards... I am ensuring that my bow will push a mechanical that much better at my usual shot distances on deer.

    The other thing that gives me pause about super heavy arrows is arrow speed/trajectory. Many of us are now shooting single pin sights. I myself made the switch two years ago to a single pin adjuster. What I like is that I can set my pin at 25 yards and make kill shots from 18-30 yards without touching the sight knowing I can paint a 6" circle. Flatter shooting setups will only help me with range issues if I don't guess correctly in the heat of the moment.
     
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  14. 0317

    0317 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    I agree with the above .... I have been a single pin shooter since the days of the good 'ol Sightmaster single pin ... this is why speed is important to me and why I want a 285-300+fps arrow and my Ritual 33 is very quiet also with those 427-430 gr Goldtips ... I leave the sight at 25 yds and very seldom adjust it .... my kill zone is 5-33 yds, which means I am in the deers heart lung easily within that range .. the faster I am, the longer that kill zone is ... I shoot a lot on 3D targets and know my trajectory very well out to 40 yds, I ca1n hold high/low and be pin point accurate .... I get plenty of Mo/KE and while I mainly shoot fixed heads, I'll still use my remaining supply of Steelheads and XL's from time to time, Ive still got Sidewinders I have used recently ... the fact is I kill deer and dont need, nor want a super heavy arrow ... as Ive said here earlier, use what works for you and enjoy the venison ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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  15. dnoodles

    dnoodles Grizzled Veteran

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    Can't speak for all set ups, but a 435-535 gr 30" arrow tipped with a Muzzy HB will destroy both humerus and split the heart on a mature whitetail buck out to about to 48 yards shooting 270-250 fps.

    Done it. Wasn't my original intent but it happened.
     
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  16. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    I agree with all the last few posts.I want/need to be over 400 gr and shot one pin to 25ish yds ...It;s that simple
     
  17. Fix

    Fix Grizzled Veteran

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    I think if you ain't shooting 800 grains you ain't a bow hunter
     
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  18. cantexian

    cantexian Grizzled Veteran

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    I can shoot to 30 yards without adjusting my single pin set at 25 yards with a 585 grain arrow. If my shot is going to be further than that, I will either have enough time to adjust the sight, or, I will wait for the deer to get closer. There is room for a little more weight insurance in the arrow without sacrificing trajectory.
     
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  19. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    What is your setup? Mine usually runs 65lbs with a 28.5" draw length. I'm getting 275ish out of this setup witha 440gr arrow. What I've found with a 25yard pin is that I'm about 1" high at 20 and 3" low at 30. I shoot a spot hogg sight that has two fibers in a single pin. The second pin falls at 38 yards. So I can basically shoot to 40 yards without touching the sight. My 35 is a bit iffy but can hold over or under with either pin. My thoughts are that if I'm going to take a longer shot at a deer, I better have enough time to adjust the sight if needed. If I don't have enough time, I probably shouldn't be taking that shot anyway.
     
  20. cantexian

    cantexian Grizzled Veteran

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    I shoot a Hoyt Charger @ 70lbs with a 26.5” draw. My bow hits dead on at 10 yards, 2” high at 15, 4” high at 20, dead on at 25 yards, 3” low at 30 yards. I practice my hold overs and can hit dead on at any distance from 0-30 without adjusting the sight.
     

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