I couldn’t agree more with what Justin said. If you shoot a set up that produces enough energy to take advantage of a large diameter mechanical I would pick that option with a 500ish grain arrow every time for whitetails. Of the probably 100 whitetail tracks I’ve been on over the years I bet I see 3 to 1 where shots are too far back vs too far forward. And the percentage on recovery with the large diameter mechanicals if the deer is given appropriate time is really high. Heavier arrows and cut on contact broadheads are not an advantage in that scenario and this is by far the most common worst case scenario. The buck I shot last week ended up with a completely shattered far side scapula. It did not completely exit, however the deer went 60 yards on three legs and flopped over dead. You couldn’t have picked a spot in the scapula with more bone density than where that arrow hit and it completely destroyed the far shoulder. I filmed a post shot autopsy when I was butchering the deer, not sure if it will make the show but I would encourage you guys to take a look. In summary, don't be afraid to shoot a large diameter mechanical on whitetails if you have a high energy setup. I know heavy and single bevel COC broadheads are the cool thing these days but just like all the other trends we’ve seen on the Internet over the past 20 years I’m sure it will go full circle.
Well i will be damned...I hadn't seen you on here in years.. Glad to see you and here from you. and I agree, I shoot Rage heads because when I screw up, 9/10 times it's too far back and it has allowed me to recover deer when given the proper time.. and because I am a short bastard I basically shoot a xbow bolt for an arrow so I am doing well to get a 390 gr arrow!! that's heavy to me
For want of a better term, I've been arguing for a "sweet spot" for many threads. I ended up hitting slightly forward on my buck this year and whacking the shoulder. It destroyed my mech but the 536 grains got me enough pen to go through the scapula and stir up the organs enough to kill in under a hundred yards. This MAY not have been the case last year when I was throwing under 400. For my rig I like mid 500s. But hey I never tried throwing rebar maybe 800 would be fun
You don’t need speed, you need momentum. My 13 year old with 50# and 475 gr arrow with 26.5” draw length gets complete pass through. He’s shouting 150 grains up front. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am far from ever achieving much speed. But I also know that I have killed a lot of deer with arrows less than 385 gr the past 30 years.. and large mech heads. and lots of two holes. I am in no way saying that a heavy arrow doesn't pernitrate better or have more momentum than a lighter one.. All I am saying is in my hunting for whitetails I don't need a very much weight. Yes, I know the IF factor. if I hit bone I am screwed. But I also know if I hit too far back I will get a pass through and kill the animal with my set up. Done more than I want to admit. I personally would shoot a much heavier arrow if I had a longer draw length. It would afford me the spare energy ...but as it is, I don't have it. I want to shoot a bow at the 265-275 fps range And so I do. I am a bowhunter, and only hunt whitetails. I have a set up now that allows me to do just that.. however, I am tinkering and thinking of going heavier, which for me would be 420-450 grs
There are some great wide cut fixed heads that are stronger than most mechs that will cut a lot of tissue and internal organs .. the new Striker X is a 4 blade 1.25" cut .. The Bloodshot is a 4 blade COC that is also a 1.25 cut, the Wicked Trick 4 blade is a 1.25" with its main blades and the Exodus is a 1.25" cut in a 3 blade ... all these do awesome damage and retain their structural integrity on most bone hits
Because his diagram only shows the fixed head shooting through shoulder. The fixed head kills a deer anywhere in that vital area meanwhile the likelihood of mechanical making a lethal kill through the shoulder is lower percentage. Why would we not increase our chances by shooting a heavy fixed blade Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Other than this your post is well taken. But all else being equal, 2 holes is almost always better than one. Since I have gone to 500+gr arrows I have yet to not get a pass through even with big 2" reverse and over the top mechs, hybrid mechs, and big fixed heads. I did get a weird in/out deflection last week but that was a fluke and could've happened with any set up, even more likely with a lighter arrow. Oh, and it has made my previously very loud bow quiet down to a nice soft "thump". So I will continue to use heavy arrows with big robust mechs (Muzzy HB, Sevr 1.5, and even NAP Spitfires) and care not a whit that I hug the shoulder. Best of both worlds.
Well he didn't say that a fixed head wouldn't do the job, just that he would rather have a big mech in those areas..as would I. But I don't see any issue with a fixed head and heavy arrow. I just prefer a lighter arrow and mech head, it fits my needs better here in VA, again, I would like to go a bit heavier myself but not to where it gets ridiculous...something in the 420 ish range will do fine
You can do fine with a 420ish arrow on good hits. Can you do fine with a 420ish arrow on marginal hits? 500+ for me is a standard for compound, preferably 550. I’m a trad shooter now and I’m 590+ but that’s has more to do with tuning and point on distance rather than TOA and FOC. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I find it amusing that causing or nearly guaranteeing a second hole in a deer is seen as a waste...I also think it is quite clear you despise ranch fairy as you continually use his terms in discussions LOL We get it, and I concur - dude is borderline nuts and too much to digest with the sound on for long. I one hundred percent agree, most failures that happen to hunters can be attributed to piss poor choices on their part falling into one of these three categories usually: -Chose to take an ignorant and ill-advised shot (too far, quartering to, directly down, through brush) -Were not proficient to start with -Ignorantly assumed their equipment will conquer all (most commonly assume arrow build or crossbows are too strong/powerful) None of those things are the equipment's fault - purely the hunters' - especially the biggest two (first two). I don't care if you shoot far too light of an arrow and a massive mechanical OR a stupid heavy arrow with a tiny fixed head...if you make stupid choices or don't practice you will experience failure, kill but not recover more deer and honestly become the type of hunter NONE of us want in the woods. Anyone that doesn't think @Justin is making a very valid point here is choosing ignorance. Full disclosure I shoot a 604 grain set up, 200 grain single bevel head with a high FOC - and Justin is so right! When speed seemed to be the sexy thing in archery, for those flatter trajectory on longer shots I think it by nature encouraged folks indirectly to take longer shots than they really should. The issue truly was never the arrow builds fault, it was the hunter choosing to take dumb long shots. Now as more and more think they need heavier arrows - and ignorantly (by choice or purely oblivious) slap a 200 grain head on a light arrow and think "I'M THE DESTROYER OF ALL SHOT ANGLES" don't understand why they lost a buck taking a quartering to shot angle and not paying attention to the shoulder. The mentality is occurring, and even as a HEAVY fixed single bevel fanboy, I've had to have some pretty educational conversations with folks on their ignorance. There is an insanely big difference between building a set up where you no longer fear the shoulder vs purposely trying to take the shoulder on or targeting it. I don't care what arrow build you have, why would you ever purposely aim for the shoulder??? I know many folks don't want to take the ownership but I blame those of us that understand arrow builds, deer anatomy and have vastly more years of experience into allow ignorance to foster inside our ranks. We turn a blind eye when we see ignorance shared or posted or spoken....shaking our heads or worse yet laughing and allowing it to go un-monitored. The continued mindset that modern technology and arrow builds make our shots unstoppable will only continue to grow unfortunately I fear...unless common sense is shared more and more.
I don't know the guy so it's not fair to say I hate him. He seems like a fun guy to hang out with. But I do hate the term "adult arrow". And I don't view a second hole in a deer as a waste at all. I believe an exit hole is crucial to easier recoveries in the event of a marginal hit. The point of my statement was about arrows passing through and sticking in the ground on the other side of the animal. Not about having an exit hole. My bad for the lack of description there. But again, I believe most marginal hits to be behind the ribcage, in which case, making a second hole isn't all that difficult. A 450-500 grain arrow with any broadhead on the front (mechanical or fixed) has little issue creating 2 holes in a whitetail the vast majority of the time. Trigger Warning: A second hole on a shot into the chest cavity is unnecessary and does not result in quicker kills or recoveries. I think we should always fear the shoulder - regardless of what type of setup you're shooting. I promise you there are plenty of animals still being shot and not recovered due to shoulder hits even with a heavy arrow setup. The problem is those never get plastered all over social media so we have a false sense of how effective these setups are. We only hear about the outcomes that resulted in a recovered animal. Confirmation bias is a real thing. Well said and I agree 1,000%
So you're telling me in the case of a liver/gut shot you would prefer a 1 1/8" hole rather than a 2"+ hole?
I agree with this, but didn't elaborate on my initial post quite as well as I should have. I'm a firm believer in an exit hole being a huge benefit. But all I need is a second hole. The arrow can be sticking 1" out the other side of the animal for all I care. The energy that's wasted by blowing all the way through and sticking 10" into the dirt is what I'm referring to. That energy can and should be used to open a bigger hole rather than driving the arrow into the dirt. My goal is to kill the animal, not the tree behind it. I have also been shooting 440-500 grain setups for 5 years now, with a variety of broadhead types and sizes, both fixed and mechanical. In that time I've shot at least 15 whitetails, mule deer and antelope that I can recall. There have only been 2 instances where I did not generate an exit hole. Both of them were 5 year old whitetails that weighed 250 lbs on the hoof. Both of them were dead within 50 yards.
You know I'd love to see though, something like the Muzzy Trocar HB offered in 200grain heads. A heavy pile driving set up, tipped with a high FOC hybrid is something I could get on board with personally and mess around with.
I doubt you'll ever see something like that. It's too expensive to spin up tooling for new heads that are only going to appeal to a small number of users. With all of the options for heavier inserts and weights on the front of your arrow, why do we need 200 grain broadheads?
No where in this thread does it say “take poor shots” but I will concur that some feel as though it’s a fail safe which it is not. But I’ll take the odds in my favor in all scenarios none the less. I have never seen nor read anything from the ranch fairy. I’m just using simple common sense. Whatever improves my chances with out overwhelming effecting other scenarios of the likelihood of a lethal kill I’ll take it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Primarily it assists in high FOC pushing weight more to the tip. You are correct, would not be cost effective at all.
May seem like a smallish issue, but a pass through with arrow recovery may not kill the deer any quicker than one sticking one inch out the opposite side but being able to examine that arrow does tell you a lot about your shot...and like as not saves you $30-50 on a new shaft and broadhead.
Very good point. But most of the time the arrow falls out of the animal pretty quickly. The only times I've had it stick in them until recovery has typically been shoulder or spine shots. And yes, arrows and broadheads certainly aren't getting any cheaper!
