Jeff I don't know if I totally agree with the herd reduction aspect being the reason for AR but speaking from experience it had that affect. Many of the locals around us, simply became disgruntled, initially, with being told what they can or can't shoot. At about the same time Doe season began to run concurrent with the buck season (talking gun season here), (it used to be the 3 day period after Buck Season closed). Consequently there was quite a drastic doe kill with liberal tags for the following years. This in turn left more food for, the now protected, bucks..yes deer sightings fell dramatically but the surviving bucks benefited.
It was more than solely herd reduction. The major driving force was to get the numbers under control and not over browse the habitat. Allow for a better buck:doe ratio, and a overall healthier heard. But in order to save some bucks when they wanted overall fewer deer, they had to basically OVER do the doe numbers. AND that's how we have this terrible early ML season smack dab in october, to kill does that are going to get killed 6 weeks later in gun season. That saves 6 weeks of mast/browse They said once the numbers were under control, it'd go away. NOT the case.
I don't know if you belong to any clubs at all Tony.........if you do that is where to ask. There is always a guy or 2 who are VERY involved with the politics of hunting and have all the right names and email addresses for you to contact. There are also meetings although MUCH less public notice of these takes place (usually because the venues are small and I believe they fear 2,000 guys showing up to a fire hall and having a mob scene develop. Call any local hunting or gun club and ask them...........or just check the DEC website and get contact info for your region. If you still come up empty handed PM me and I will find the contacts for you.
I will rephrase the question as to not offend the ladies during their time of the month. Knowing what you know today............If you could roll back the clock and go back to 2001 would you do it all the same way or do you believe there is a better way? NY is rapidly approaching it's 2001. Anyone have the actual number difference (P+Y) between before and after AR's in PA?? This would be more valuable info then a rank.
Very true. I feel the primary push at the time (I attended several presentations by Alt during the implementation year) was herd reduction. Much of his presentation was focused around getting deer densities in particular areas of the state back to sustainable levels. AR seemed to be a by-product of his management plan. With that being said, based simply off my observations, deer size as a whole has improved on my parents 90 acres in WMU 2G in the Northcentral part of the state. I DID see about two "mature" bucks during the pre-AR era (granted, I'm only 24, so I didn't have too many years in when they went into place), but then again, I like many PA hunters, shot the first buck that wasn't a spike for many of my younger years, so I wasn't getting as much seat time to see if one might happen to show. Our hunting club which encompasses about 1200 acres even farther north in Lycoming county than my parents place has definitely seen a change (both in rack size and herd size). The deer density is MUCH lower than it was when I was hunting there in my first few years. There's bigger crews of guys than ever during archery season, but overall sightings are down. With that being said, the average deer being taken in this mountanous area (which mind you has VERY little agriculture for such a large landmass (between the three major neighboring clubs, there's ~4000 acres), is certainly larger each year. Most are 70-100" deer which is HUGE for this area. They may only put 4 down a year as opposed to 15+ a yr (25 active members), but the deer weigh more (we weigh all deer, but unfortunately no records are kept), and the racks are a bit bigger. The average deer at this club (as evidence of the pictures that adorn the walls from over the past 70yrs) was usually a fork horn or a spike...literally. I'm not going to try and fool anyone into thinking I'm in a position to offer an experts opinion, these are just my thoughts and observations.
Atlas this is not a P & Y chart, but a CBM for MI which a buck needs to score 100'' to get in. One county has AR for both tags in Northern MI. 2006 was the 5th year for this and the DMU renewed it in 2008 for another 5 years I believe. The beat 21 in 2007 and 2008. Jeff AR help with herd reduction because it forces hunters to shoot the "right" deer. IN MI we shoot plenty of deer, just the wrong ones. Average causal hunter who makes of the majority of hunter just wants to shoot a buck, if that task is made a bit tougher they will take a doe.
Deer numbers and habitat. The three highest counties average around 70-80 dpsm. This is gun and archery, so those are gun kills mixed in there also.
Leelanau county used to be lucky to get 1 entry a year. However, the 3 points on a side used up there would not protect nearly as many yearling's in southern Michigans farm belt.
I look at AR's as one thing for bucks, trigger control for gun season. IMO that is all AR's are for, to help reduce the number of 1.5 bucks being killed. All PA has done is change the age of the bucks they shoot. It use to be around 60%+ 1.5's now over 50% are 2.5's. Remember it took states like PA, NY and MI a long time to get in the pickle we are in, there is no quick fix.
That's what I don't want..............I really don't see the average guy shooting a 6 or small 8 as a major improvement. I can shoot 6's and small 8's in NY now. I disagree. It just takes brains and willpower..................in other words, we're screwed!!!
Nothing, NLP and UP are way differnet in habitat. Almost 70% of the land is public in some counties in the northen MI. SLP is over populated by 105% in some counties, but it is mostly private. They best hunting is in the SLP with land owners forming QDM CO-OPs. The set AR's or spread restrictions. Young Miss Larkyn family is part of one, she's 13 and has 3 bucks over 150 in MI. I would not suggest following the SLP in MI for herd control. I can shoot 5 does in the SLP if I wanted too.
AR's can be used here to increase the majority of the buck age structure to be 3.5 before being legal if done correctly. Although it could would be easier done in non agricultural area's. Germ, correctly done AR's are a quick fix to bigger bucks.
