So it's been 7 years now. Shouldn't we be seeing MAJOR changes in the deer coming out of PA by now? What's up down there guys?
Compared to 10 years ago we are seeing major changes. Alot more mature bucks. I remember when if you saw a six point you were one of the lucky hunters. Because of our numbers here in Pa I don't think we'll ever reach the buck sizes of say the midwest, alot of the farmland is pretty much gone, but they are bigger.
1. It never was meant to bring MAJOR changes. 50% of yearling bucks and likely 90+% of 2.5 yr olds are legal under the rules. With the pressure the bucks still get that's a lot being shot before they are mature. However, yes things have improved quite a bit. I call it the trickle down effect. More bucks getting by the 1st year, is more getting by thier 2nd, 3rd, etc. AND what more importantly is happeneing is it is SLOWLY changing the mindset of a "shooter" buck for many people. Those yr & half small 8's and even some decent 2.5's are being let go because people now feel they have legit chances at real big bucks.
I know Erie has a 4 point on one side restriction .... I wonder what is happening over there? How many counties have that restriction? .. the 3 point restriction pretty much gives a free pass to spikes ... not much else as mose 1.5 year olds have 5 or more points .....
My cousin lives in Indiana, PA. We were just talking about this last weekend. He said he's really glad they did it...he now sees several good bucks every year, where before he might see only one every 5yrs. On the surface (to me)...it appears things have gotten alot better across the board. I think rybo is right, I know quite a few guys up there that their mindset has changed....they no longer want to shoot the first spike they see. That helps more than any antler restriction can.
So what was the point then?? To have guys shoot 6's and basket 8's instead of spikes and 4's?? Seems like a waste of time if that is the only MAJOR change after 7 years. Again I would ask............then what is the point? The reason I started this thread is AR talk is common around NY these days and it seems to be some people's cure all for the poor hunting conditions they endure every fall. It's something I will no doubt be voting on in the near future. I just don't see anything coming out of PA that makes me think AR's is the answer. Remember when Matt shot his big buck and a couple other guys from PA arrowed some nice bucks in what 05-06 maybe?........the boards were FULL of comments how the AR's were kicking in and PA was turning the corner and gonna start putting out big bucks. What happened since then?? 7 years is a LONG time to wait...........I just think that if the effect was going to be dramatic you would have seen it by now. NY has major problems.............we need a major solution. Shooting 6's and basket 8's is not the answer we are looking for.
I've seen drastic changes. I'm seeing 2.5's and 3.5's (combined) with the same frequency that I used to see 1.5's. My top 3 PA bucks have all been taken during this time. Personally I'd be thrilled to see an AR put in place in NY. I know it's selfish, but it will protect the bucks I'm already passing now. I've seen no less than 4 bucks I've passed get shot by other hunters in the last few years.
In Arkansas, we have a 3-point rule and over the past several years I have noticed more mature bucks than I have ever seen. It seems to be working here. There is also a three deer limit. You can either kill 2 bucks, 1 doe or 2 does, 1 buck.
Atlas .. AR's of 4 points on one side would help TREMENDOUSLY, IMO. I am concerned over the AMOUNT of deer I am seeing ,,, I don't know if it's just the property I have been hunting,or it's a statewide issue ...
I think Ryans wall the last 4 years is a decent indicator of more mature bucks making it to 3.5 .... Lots of guys on the boards are getting it done in PA these past few years on dandy bucks!
Possibly.............3 is just a waste of time IMO as it leaves every 1.5 other then 4 ptrs fair game. Then they will just get smoked next year as a basket 6 or 8. I just don't see changing the "average" buck from a 4 to a 6 as any kind of change worth getting involved in. Don't forget Tony............you live here. You KNOW how rediculously long it takes for ANY change whatoever to even be considered around here. We have to make sure we get on board with the RIGHT move or we will be stuck on the same old crappy treadmill for another decade. All we will hear after they set up AR's is "just be patient"..........well, PA has been "patient" for 7 years now and I don't think anyone in the country is marking their calander for that out of state trip to PA to chase some big bucks they can't find at home.
Here's somthing I just read on this.. Gray science on browns "I have been hunting for 31 years, and nothing stirs things up like a good ol' debate about AR. With that being said, I'm all for it," a hunter named Mtnbuck posted on empirehunting.com's deer forum. "If you want the meat, whack a doe. There (are) more than enough around." Certainly Mr. Hurst and the DEC would not disagree with the poster referencing a healthy population of female deer. The big game biologist feels the department has properly managed the state's antlerless harvest over the years. But linking antler restrictions with an increase in antlerless harvest was not part of the department's initial goal. Instead, the intention was to shift the composition of the buck harvest in those four WMUs per the request of those hunters in the area. Obviously, the number of deer harvested is quite lower than prior to the antler restriction program, but the scientific results on the overall deer population appear muddied. "Many times, antler restrictions are put in place in conjunction with population management programs where the entire population is intended to be reduced," Hurst said. To temper those sportsmen saying antler restrictions make a herd healthier, the DEC's own parameters used to evaluate herd condition and herd health simply can't project any improvement or change based on an antler restriction program. Breeding success is just one part of the equation and breeding success looks fine. Gonnetto, a 65-year-old bear, turkey and deer hunter who speaks for the Erie County federation, suggests antler restrictions ends up hurting the herd health by lowering the quality of its genetic makeup. "If you only shoot big deer and let the little crappy bucks go by, are you taking the best of the bunch and leaving the little guys — the ones that aren't going to grow big antlers potentially — to spawn more ugly bucks?" The New York hunter, originally from New Jersey, asked. Besides genetics, Gonnetto cited nutrition and age as major factors in antler formation. But limiting the young buck take in the hopes a buck can meet all three antler formation criteria increases the numbers of deer-car collisions, malnutrition, deer death from predators and from other diseases. "A lot of things can happen if you try to save these deer," he said. "I would say probably 30 to 40 percent of them are going die from one of these things I've mentioned." Gonnetto feels "whatever you do on your own property is your own business." If the land owner wants to raise corn, oats, or clover on his property, it's his right. At the same time, if the hunter wants to save a spike, it should be up to the hunter to decide, not the state
Our Camp and the surrounding camps all believe it helped a great deal! Much better bucks and more of'em.
Really?? I'm not much for using one guy as an example for a HUGE situation. Lots of people play scratch off tickets every day..........sure looks like a great idea when you see the guy who won a million dollars.........but talk to the other million people who lost and got nothing and the view changes quite a bit. Using that logic we could choose another guy from PA who hasn't scored on anything in the last 5 years and call the state a complete disaster. Obviously neither is true and the truth is somewhere in the middle. Just trying to find out what that "truth" is before I have to make a choice for NY's future. There are 1 million licensed hunters in PA.............if the "average" guy is not getting a legit crack at a mature buck these days then the program is not working. 7 years is more then enough time to see the results, if it hasn't happened by now it's not going to. Where are all these bucks?? They sure aren't showing up on the boards. We had a one year flash of a couple guys downing nice bucks and a LOT of enthusiasm and excitement.............since then?? Crickets. Shouldn't it be getting BETTER every year down there?? When I hear Rob say a couple days ago "PA hunting sucks"..........that tells me something.
Your living a pipe dream if you think 1 million "ave" hunters should be getting a crack at a mature buck. That doesn't happen anywhere. Year in and out since the restrictions were set, more and more P.A. guys from the boards have commented on seeing better bucks, more trail cam pix of mature bucks have surfaced and finally we see P.A. guys every year taking 2.5s and older bucks.
I know some people that hunt PA on public land and Drastic is a good word to use. From what I have seen and heard there has been a big difference in the size of the bucks. I have seen far more big bucks come out of there since they implemented the restrictions. The does are getting bred on time also which is a plus. I'm surprised that anyone could think that it hasn't made a big differance for the better. No one said it was meant to make PA the next Iowa, Kansas or Illinois.
I'm not going to get into a nit picky arguement over AR's anymore. Been there, done that to death the fisrt couple years they came about. It's a pipe dream to think AR's alone will suddently produce mature bucks everywhere. But what it does, is allow more bucks to take that next step. Which in turn allows a few more more to make it thru each progressive year. Then people see they might actually have a chance at a nice buck, and don't shoot that legal 8 pt. Enough people doing that can make big differences in some areas. Far too many people have seen some of the biggest bucks of thier lives since AR, and almost EVERYONE, has seen more "nice" bucks than they ever have. Personally, before AR, a "monster" was a 100" 2.5 year old, and I might be lucky to see 1-2 a year while spotting, riding around and hunting. You saw a mature buck once every 5 years. Now its nothing to see at least 5-6 2.5 yr olds in my area, and 2-3 REAL mature bucks. The The rest of the state would see even better improvements if it went to 4 pts instead of 3, because more bucks would be saved each year. I'm sorry the level of huge bucks coming out of PA doesn't suit your expectations, so vote down AR's in NY and let it continue to suck beyond belief.
That's not what I said. Again.........is this something we never saw before??........and more specifically if the goal is to shift from shooting 4 pt's to basket 6's and 8's then it is a waste of time IMO. I can shoot 6's and small 8's in NY right now. I wish PA was lighting up the boards with big bucks the last couple years...........it would make it an easy decision.
Why always jump to the extreme??.........who said they expected "mature bucks everywhere"?? Suddenly??..........Ryan, it's been 7 years........actually 8 now. What kind of time frame are you guys working on down there? 10 years.......20 years?? When AR's were put in place how long did they tell you guys it would be before things got "better"?? This is my opinion right now..........AR's will do NOTHING up here if they are set less then 4 pt per side. Forgive me for trying to learn from others mistakes. NY will get ONE SHOT at fixing it's problems and it is coming soon. Whatever we try will be what we are stuck with for the next 20 years at least.
