I have to agree with vs on this. Particularly the concept of reverends and tithing. They are utterly silly.
I agree with the premise of what you are saying, but that statement is in itself a contradiction. A true (big air quotes) reverend, would not want to be addressed as such. The Latin root of the word reverend is reverendus, which means person to be revered. If a member of the clergy doesn't want others to view him as superior (revere him) then he wouldn't use the title
I really am having trouble understanding this. Our church has no paid clergy, all volunteer their time, and a considerable amount of it. Our accountant, volunteer. Sound system coordinators, volunteers. Lawn maintenance, volunteers. Building maintenance and cleaning, volunteers. Everything gets done every month. No one is ever paid a dime.
I would go to your church .... Tithing is before Grace....no MAN should be held up as holier than another.... I have been inner circle and saw so much stuff from "men of God" All over the world.... Pastors are men...or women in some instances....period. They are not closer nor do they hear more from God than anyone is or can....it's just more golden calf worship...
I was born and raised in church, my dad being the senior pastor here for 13 years and youth pastor for 29. Every year our church has a printed document saying where the money went. Up till 3 years ago we only had three staff members paid, senior, assistant, and secretary adding to it a worship/youth three years ago. Otherwise everything else is volunteer. As far as respecting pastors. I have seen firsthand the difficulty and how hard being a pastor is. I would not wish it on anyone. My dad puts in more hours working then anyone else I know. He is there 7 days a week, and I as his son can say he deserves respect. Our church is 600+ people in a town of 13,000 and its growing. Very little tradition at all just biblically based.
In no way was I suggesting that clergy members are not deserving of respect. On the contrary, ministers deserve the utmost respect for the work they do. To be an effective teacher, a tremendous amount of time and effort is exerted. It's the addressing such ones with titles that serve to elevate them above others that is the issue. Doing so isn't scriptural. Jesus himself counseled the apostles not to address anyone as rabbi, father or leader. If anyone had a right to elevate himself it was Jesus, but he didn't. He set the example that we are all under the same law and serve the same God, and are all sinners, so no person has an elevated position before God. Therefore no person is deserving of an elevated position before men. Regardless of intent, having a title makes others view a person differently, just look at how people view the pope. Jesus didn't want that.
Why, what is the trouble? If it is the simple fact that sometimes a church grows to the point volunteer staff just isn't feasible. Our church itself I believe only has maybe 10 (includes even part time and office staff) paid staff positions.....some of which are basically minimum wage....the rest is a lot of volunteer type positions. Our school obviously employs teachers, principle and cleaning staff as any school would have to have...none of which make what public school positions do, nor do they see raises from years of experience. When I stated the figures I did prior I was including the school staff as well...the church itself doesn't employ many actual positions. Our church is larger than many but not a mega church by any stretch of the imagination...every position and budget is voted on by the church and reviewed by the church council (volunteers)...no spending occurs without the consent of the church and transparency is a must. There is ZERO way that our church could function and support the community outside the church and the members in the church the way it does if it was strictly volunteer based. I grew up in such a church though and 100% get it...shoot I can remember being the cleaning staff with my parents and grandparents and helping dad do the mowing. However that congregation barely had 40 people a service....just a different church altogether. Our church still functions on a HUGE volunteer base..shoot I'm one of them. I do sound for our worship and speaking events...coordinate concert/events (although haven't done one in over 2 years)...am a youth leader as well. I wouldn't even state I do a lot compared to some though. Each church is different, based on size the need for staff changes. I think the biggest key is that the congregation of brothers and sisters is always the decision makers and prayer and thoughtfulness go into any decision that includes doing God's work with the money which is tithed...afterall that is a HUGE responsibility. As an example of this, I just as recent as last week was attempting to raise money for a young lady in our youth to go to Haiti for a missions trip. Well, a church which my brother attends down in Southern Indiana tries to at the end of each month give a portion of the tithes brought in to charities, or mission trips or something to further be God's hands and feet.....he shared with them the campaign I'd made for the young lady and they decided to send over $800 to this young lady....the envelope when it came had the return address of God. I will 100% honest, I cried when I opened the envelope and nearly again when I was able to tell the girl what all we'd raised (between us and her she is fully funded!). That is just one example of a church properly utilizing the money which is ultimately God's. Our church is bigger than some, however the size of the church or the amount of the money tithed means zero if it is mishandled. 100% that money needs to do God's work...and that comes in many different forms from donations to bills to what salaries the church has chosen to take on. I have no clue if this long response is even anywhere close to clear or helpful. All I know is the responsibility of the church is to serve, and that doesn't mean get rich off it's members.
I mean the tithe was to the Jew before Christ's resurrection.... It is not to the local church...any giving that is done by a believer should be under the leadership of the Holy Ghost, not the demands or begging of man...church's bully the congregation into giving....and that is proof those church leaders have no faith in God's provision nor do they respect the individual priesthood of the New Testament believer
It seems like we all have our own idea about what a church should be like. Couldn't we have our own ideas without cutting down someone else's? May The Sheep Be With You
I claim ignorance as well Tony, never heard the "tithing is before Grace" statement, please elaborate or explain. (ignore this Tony I saw your previous statement and I hear ya.) As for the no man is holier, I 100% agree and am thankful I volunteer and worship at a church that has pastors which feel the exact same way. If your pastor says "you" in his sermons instead of "we" there is an issue and I would struggle to worship there.
That does make a bit more sense Ty. Does your church function as a unique entity or is it tied to the "headquarters" of the church...like Catholic churches are tied to the Vatican. The reason I ask is because I fully realize that it takes money, sometimes a great deal, to operate a place of worship. Parts of it do run similar to a business, it has to in order to be efficient. But when certain things are taken care of by the "headquarters" for lack of a better term, the need for paid positions at the local level is eliminated. Our headquarters oversees training of clergy members, determines doctrinal teachings (which promotes unity throughout congregations), approves and finances new places of worship to be built, coordinates relief efforts and missionary work, takes care of any legal matters, acquires bibles and literature for every congregation, etc. All money we take in, after paying for utilities and necessary expenses, goes to the headquarters to be used however is most beneficial to the worldwide congregation. It's a different way of doing it than most I know, I was just trying to wrap my head around how it's done elsewhere
We are not a headquarters as you describe. I do know a portion, although the amount escapes me currently, goes to the Lutheran Missouri Synod for our seminaries, district and national decision making and funding of mission work worldwide funded by LCMS...however they do not supply our bibles unless we request them to do so, likewise with any other funding to the everyday operation of our church. Our doctrinal teachings do follow the church calendar (which like you stated promotes unity throughout congregations connected to the LCMS). However, unlike some churches a Lutheran Doctrine is not shoved in sermons....the word of God is preached and honesty is felt from the men who happen to be our pastors. The day I feel I'm attending a church that lacks integrity or honesty or transparency I could no longer call it my church home. I brought up our denomination in this response which is something I strive not to do in religious conversations...but felt it added clarity...with that said I'll reiterate though: I'm a Christian, my denomination isn't nearly as important as the beliefs I hold in my heart and the relationship I have with my heavenly Father. Christian is something I will never cease to be whether God leads me to worship elsewhere or where I am till the day I die.
Aha...gotcha. I'm starting to like you more and more Tony! Sounds like we believe very similarly on the subject, I just never heard it referred to that way.
Jesus talked about tithe in the NT and even said we should not all churches demand tithe they just teach what it means to tithe. Its a personal choice to or to not. Our money isn't our money God gave us all the abilities to make the money we receive and if you have a hard time giving back to God what is his then your problem may lay within your heart not your faith. What claims your heart is what your care about the most. Is it money or is it God? Luke 11:42New Living Translation (NLT) 42 “What sorrow awaits you Pharisees! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens,[a] but you ignore justice and the love of God. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. Matthew 22:17-22New Living Translation (NLT) 17 Now tell us what you think about this: Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus knew their evil motives. “You hypocrites!” he said. “Why are you trying to trap me? 19 Here, show me the coin used for the tax.” When they handed him a Roman coin,[a] 20 he asked, “Whose picture and title are stamped on it?” 21 “Caesar’s,” they replied. “Well, then,” he said, “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.” 22 His reply amazed them, and they went away. Malachi 3:8-12New Living Translation (NLT) 8 “Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! “But you ask, ‘What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?’ “You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. 9 You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. 10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! 11 Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease.[a] Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. 12 “Then all nations will call you blessed, for your land will be such a delight,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. tithe Word Origin noun 1. Sometimes, tithes. the tenth part of agricultural produce or personal income set apart as an offering to God or for works of mercy,or the same amount regarded as an obligation or tax for the support of the church, priesthood, or the like. 2. any tax, levy, or the like, especially of one-tenth. 3. a tenth part or any indefinitely small part of anything. verb (used with object), tithed, tithing. 4. to give or pay a tithe or tenth of (produce, money, etc.). 5. to give or pay tithes on (crops, income, etc.). 6. to exact a tithe from (a person, community, parish, etc.). 7. to levy a tithe on (crops, income, etc.). verb (used without object), tithed, tithing. 8. to give or pay a tithe.
No disrespect meant to anyone who is regligious/disrespecting their beliefs, be it Christian or otherwise, but I agree with Dogfish to an extent. I do not believe in God, Jesus, Allah, or otherwise. However.. I do respect others beliefs and show respect where it is due. If I am in a church for a funeral, wedding, or whatever.. I will bow my head and remain quiet out of respect for those who do believe. I have gone to Jewish events and have put on the yamika (spelling?), ect. The only thing I ask for in return is that others do not try and push their beliefs on me. I am not saying anyone here as done that, just making a statement. When my now wife and I were going thru pre-marital counsiling, we met with a cantor who would marry us (My wife is Jewish and many Rabbis would not marry us unless I converted, which I refused to do). When he asked me what religion I was/what my beliefs were, I replied "I am atheist.. I do not believe in a God or Gods". I was expecting this long lecture.. he looked at me and said "To me, that is a shame, but that is your choice and I respect that. If you ever want to explore the Jewish faith, I would be happy to talk with you" and he went on with the session. Yet, I have a 1/2 sister who is married to a minister.. she is one of the most hypocritical people I have ever met in my life. She tried to force her beliefs on me once and I politely told her that is her beliefs, not mine. She refused to come to my wedding because my wife is Jewish and the Jewish faith doesn't believe in Christ. Our mutual father had left her mother for my mother, YEARS BEFORE I was born.. yet she treats me like dirt and has told other siblings that I am no brother of hers. When her mother passed away, I was going to attend the funeral out of respect for her and my other 1/2 siblings.. she asked that I not come, because it was "disrespectful to her and her mother".
I fully respect your view. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with your sister. Everyone is entitled to their belief, or lack thereof, without being ridiculed. That's part of what makes America great (at least it used to). We aren't communists (yet)....different opinions are a good thing; makes people think and constantly reinforce their own beliefs.
And this my friend touches on the crux of the matter...the biggest enemy to Christians is often times, most of the time and in some places ALL the time the very "Christians" there. I live my life with the striving concept of attempting to be different, because God calls me to be different as I am not of this world. However, I don't mean different in that I hold signs that say "Jesus or Death" instead I live my life as if my Father is right there with me. How I interact, how I treat others, how I respond to others...all are done in an attempt (of which I fail at times...at times miserably) to be as He called me to be; loving. The sad thing is that in this day and age many have lost touch on how to love someone while still disagreeing with them, as bowhunter's example eluded to and even gave an example to in my opinion. The failure to respect the other sinner (yes there is always two as Jesus is no longer here) in the discussion is always the end of the discussion....as it is now simply an argument. Arguments result in hurt feelings, offense taken and often times more damage to either perspective, the relationship between the two or BOTH. A discussion however usually causes reflection on ones beliefs at minimum and due to it strengthens or questions or again BOTH each sinner's thoughts. I'll be honest I've never been one to sacrifice honesty in order to protect feelings...however I've learned even honesty can be delivered in a loving way...granted it may not always be received well but I know for me personally some of the BEST conversations I've ever had are with others of completely different lifestyles or religions.
