Eric Garner Outcome???

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by Heckler, Dec 4, 2014.

  1. Scott/IL

    Scott/IL Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Timeout. So you're trying to tell me if I don't break the law, and don't put an officer in harms way, then I probably won't be engaged in a physical altercation that may result in me being shot or physically harmed, which then may lead to my death?

    Mind blown.
     
  2. Wiscohunter

    Wiscohunter Die Hard Bowhunter

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    As a Brazilian jujitsu practitioner I can tell you with 100% certainty that if somebody truly has you in a choke hold (guillotine, rear naked, lapel choke, Ezekiel choke) and many many other chokes, there is no possible way you would be able to utter a single word and you would have approx. 10 seconds before you are going to sleep depending on various factors. Keep that choke on for another 25-35 seconds and there is a good chance that person will be dead.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  3. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    Slippery slope to blame his health for this death. Not sure how I feel about this situation.

    Sure a healthy individual survives that encounter... But it doesn't negate how poorly the amped up cop handled the situation. You do NOT go in for hand to hand combat with a 350 lb man... especially when you are specifically trained to not use a chokehold PERIOD.

    I don't see homicide, but the cop made a HUGE mistake and it cost the man his life (sure if he had better health maybe he would still be alive, but it doesn't change the fact that he died from a heart attack caused by being choked out).

    People act like this guy ate himself to death and the cop did no wrong. He lost his badge for good reason and I wouldn't have been upset if this one made it to trial. Obviously with sealed grand jury records we don't know all the details yet... but that video is pretty damning of the cop.
     
  4. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    I have huge respect for the police, but I'm getting just as tired of their stand up for your brethren regardless of the individual scenario just as much as the minorities applying this to everything by playing the race card. We should police our own. As cops, black people, white people, hell Americans in general. Too many people are not held accountable for their actions by their peers: Black People, Doctors, Pharmacists, Cops, and the list goes on. It applies to everyone. Take responsibility for your actions.
     
  5. virginiashadow

    virginiashadow Legendary Woodsman

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  6. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    Not nearly often enough..

    But same goes for the Thousands of black on black gun homicides annually. It doesn't generate a buzz or fit an agenda. The less one follows the national news outlets daily the better off your life will be.

    Cops have an extremely tough and dangerous job that one should take great pride in... I wish they would police their own ranks when it comes to the few overzealous ones rather than blindly defend them simply because they too are a cop. I see it all the time locally and it frustrates me. Same with the racial tensions... I hate blind defenses for agendas, and I see it on both sides of this particular case. People defending the cop regardless of how many mistakes he made because he is a cop and his job is tough and that guy was arrested for selling illegal cigarettes before. On the flip side, the outspoken black community is blasting the cop for the simple fact Eric was black and it fits their cause.

    Both sides (the vast majority) refuse to even consider the other's perspective that maybe the cop did make mistakes or maybe this wasn't because of his skin tone.
     
  7. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    Exactly, this was a head lock. This is a pretty significant distinction.

    I am disturbed by the video as most are.

    The man was definitely one physical altercation away from death and that is pretty clear so how do you handle him.

    The police were trying to the job they are paid to do and he resisted. When he was muttering the words I can't breathe, as most would do and they have probably heard many times before they probably didn't even suspect there was any danger and I fully suspect this is the kind of testimony the grand jury heard.

    I can see being upset in this case. Many things could have gone differently and this man would still be alive.

    Protesting in this case may spark the conversation on how to handle this differently and is it really that important to arrest a man 31 times for selling untaxed cigarettes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  8. virginiashadow

    virginiashadow Legendary Woodsman

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    Any officer worth his/her salt goes out on a nightly basis and engages some of the worst people that live in their beat area. The more times you encounter those bastards the higher the chance that something bad happens. Then you start hearing about cops who have had multiple uses of force and complaints by citizens because they are "too aggressive" meaning they actually get out there and confront the worst people you can imagine, many times by themselves under cover of darkness. I cannot tell you how many times I have confronted a person or groups of people that were armed with gun and had drugs in cars and on their person. And many times I was all by myself. Ive had friends chase people that just committed murder execution style......guy actually dropped his gun as he was running and when challenged immediately put his hand in his waistband to retrieve the gun he thought was there. Luckily the officer had a great sense of himself and his surroundings and burned a hole in the guys hands and saw he did not have a gun....if that "unarmed" guy didn't comply immediately that would have been a good shoot.

    Much like that cop in Phoenix that shot that "unarmed" man last night. Cops 6th sense goes off, thinks he sees the guy tuck a gun and run and he chases. He catches the guy, and the guy sticks his hands in his pockets instead of complying and the cop feels something hard in his pocket and his brain tells him "gun!"....gives the guy verbal commands and he doesnt stop trying to dig in his pocket...bam bam he is dead. Come to find out the guy did have a gun but had dropped in the car. Many people that do not deal with this type of stuff do not understand that when a cops senses are heightened things move quickly and large area of focus that most un-pressured people deal with every day diminishes rapidly because of the bodys fight or flight syndrome. They are literally locked into a live or death encounter and have to make decisions rapidly with a diminished sensory scope.

    Enough of my bs talking but I will leave people with this...these stupid protesters and the media flaming this stuff have made a grave error. What they don't understand is this is actually going to backfire on them. The good people of this country are sick and tired of everything to do with being the scapegoats of other peoples and communities failures. You can see people speaking out against the bs claims of certain communities and people actually thinking logically. The tide is turning.....
     
  9. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    The ironic part about these protest is they are claiming blacks are targeted by police. The statistics don't show this to be factual (facts are irrelevant to these "protester") whites are killed by cops by a 3-1 margin in this country and that is right along with the population but you won't hear about that from them.

    This, even though offending homicides from 1980 to 2008 were 8x higher among blacks than whites.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  10. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    And imo, the president needs to be yelling these statistics from the roof tops instead of perpetuating the lies. But it has been quite evident during his time in office that he doesn't care about the truth, only his agenda.

    He could do much more good with race relations in this country instead of tearing our communities apart.
     
  11. fletch920

    fletch920 Grizzled Veteran

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    I see your point. But, another option would have been to taze him. No way he lives through that either. No way for the police to know they were dealing with a ticking time bomb of terrible health. I don't blame them for wanting to quickly defuse what could have turned into a risky situation for the officers.
     
  12. dnoodles

    dnoodles Legendary Woodsman

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    As acouple others have pointed out:

    - NOT a choke hold. The move is a head lock.

    When the guy is on the ground saying he couldn't breathe, it had nothing to do with the submission hold. It had everything to do with his 375lb + 200-some lb of cops laying of top of his diaphragm. If you are choking a person using force across the windpipe, they gag. They do not clearly articulate the words "I can't breathe" multiple times.

    As anyone who has had extensive use of force training could tell you, it is SOP that once you have someone on the ground who was previously resisting (especially one that is much larger or stronger than you) to take a moment to assess that the person and situation is mechanically controlled/restrained prior to releasing your point of manual control. In Garner's case, his health status could not handle the extra weight pressure from the cops while they were in those final stages of control assessment. Sad but true.

    The cop actually went with a good soft submission takedown, which was appropriate to the level of resistance the subject was presenting. The cop did not strike. He did not tase (which could very well have also killed Garner.) The officer did a great job of assessing the use of force continuum. Subject Garner was actively resisting both verbal and physical commands but was not assaulting or presenting the appearance of threatening the officers. As such, the officer approached from behind and placed Garner in a submission hold/takedown. The man went down. Cops fell/engage on top while attempting to control/restrain subject.

    Similar scenarios happen every day. Every day. 99% of the time the result is bad guy gets led away in cuffs scuffed up but no long term damage, and the cops get to go home to their families and have a funny story to tell. This scenario is that other 1%.

    What were the cops supposed to do, just say "you know what- F it. You don't want to got to jail today...that's fine" and walk away?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  13. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    The cop lost his gun and badge for breaking protocol. Under no circumstances are NYC cops to use head locks, or choke holds, or whatever you want to call it. He is trained that way, and knew he shouldn't... Testosterone got flowing and he went in to take down the big guy KNOWING he shouldn't and it cost the man his life.

    Idc if he died from a heart attack, crushed windpipe, suffocation, or choking on the pizza in his mouth during the takedown. The cop broke protocol and it cost the man his life.

    I'm not saying it was murder of a blackman, but quit acting like the cop did no wrong. If he did no wrong, he would still be a cop.
     
  14. virginiashadow

    virginiashadow Legendary Woodsman

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    While I agree with parts of your statement, I do not agree with the above in bold. His break of protocol did not cost the guy his life, positional asphyxia more than likely did when cops piled on top of him and constricted his diaphragm, which in conjunction with his numerous health problems led to his death.
     
  15. Jacob1

    Jacob1 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    P.S... If you can speak, you can breath. Just saying.
     
  16. fletch920

    fletch920 Grizzled Veteran

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    As a Juzilian Brewjitsu drinker, I can tell you that you have barley scratched the surface on the impact of a rear naked.
     
  17. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    Yeah, I guess the whole scenario was a lose lose. I can't say with certainty what I'd do in the cops position, but the breach in protocol at the very least was the domino that started the cascade of this man's death. Tough situation to approach because you want cops to be accountable for their actions the same as everyone else, but they are put in situations daily that none of the rest of us are so it's easy to be armchair quarterback dissecting these tapes.

    Like I said, a non trial or a trial in this situation wouldn't upset me. Tough one to call I just don't like blind defenses for either side. Both parties made mistakes that cost him his life.
     
  18. virginiashadow

    virginiashadow Legendary Woodsman

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    Blackbelt enlightenment. My wife gets home late Sunday night and I will be perfecting brown belt level rear naked chokes until I get them right.
     
  19. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    Or until you puke
     
  20. fletch920

    fletch920 Grizzled Veteran

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    Lucky girl. Nothing wrong with being a perfectionist.
     

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