It's always our pay or our benefits that make the product high I've been to school and spent four years serving my country. I have no desire to become an educated idiot. I prefer just to work and make an honest living. I'm done arguing ..it's pointless. Your not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Understand its your job so you gotta say what you gotta say but you know what we mean so if the shoes fits wear it, if not my apologies. And most of us do work for what you call slave labor. It's the pros and cons of our freedom in this democracy. Can just imagine what a smartphone would cost if built in Detroit? No one could afford them so they'd never be built. I stead they are free with a two year contact to use their service. Ps. I noticed you used the word fair wages. Really???? I'm sorry a NY janitor or garbage man should never make six figures a year no matter how long he's been on the job. Not when you got someone willing to do the job for $20k a year.
Since you quoted me, I would guess your response was aimed at me. I am not blaming all of America's manufacturing woes on the unions, my point is as far as a union member should be concerned, the managements wages should have nothing to do with what the union members are paid. If you want pay equal to management, become management. Otherwise, worry about what you do and be happy with wages. If you don't like your wage and benefit package, go find a job that has what you want. I worked for America's largest employer and we never got wage increases or benefit improvements just because our current contract ended. If we wanted to keep our job, we signed a new contract. If we wanted better pay, we worked our butts off and when a position opened up, we got it if we deserved it. There was no time and half or double time for working overtime or holidays. There were times we worked 96 hours straight and accepted it because it was our job. When I see a 30 year old kid bragging about how his union has got him up to $45 per hour to watch a machine run on the production line and if something goes awry to push a button so someone will come fix it, you cannot convince me that is fair work for fair wages. If he is getting $45 per hour for that, so is his peers. Tell me how that does not adversely affect cost effectiveness. When Maytag closed, the unionized factory workers on the production line were averaging $28 per hour. Production line workers in the auto industry were averaging $29 per hour (not including benefits).
Thank you for serving our country and make the world a freer place. Seriously. I read a study pointing out how union workers were the least happy at their jobs dispite all their benefits and pay raises. The point they made was most people change careers three times in their and although the have to go back to school or start at the bottom with a new company. In the end it a challenge and a change of pace that makes their lives far more interesting, enjoyable and profitable. A person doing the same job for 40 years no matter how much it pays is very unrewarding. From my experience. The way I keep the people that work for me happy is by challenging them to e better and making them feel a part of something bigger than themselves. I pay the well but they understand what the job can pay and know if they want to make $100k a year they need to start their own business "which I encourage them all to do or at least start a side business" or find another job that they are worth more at. Bottom line if the sh!t hits the fan and we are all living in the jungle only the strong will survive.
I don't think unions are demanding pay equal to management, not to sure where that comes from. I think the unions are asking why should they take pay cuts and sacrifice benefits to help the company when the managers that ran the company into the ground are still getting bonuses and stock options with no decrease in pay. Seems like a lopsided sacrifice to me.
In my business when I no longer feel someone is worth more money I stop giving them raises so they either make themselves worth more pay or move on, either way I'm good with it. Reguardless if your management or part time worker. You get paid what your worth. Some people just can't except that the job they are doing is only worth so much. If you really think your worth more than go prove it. Don't call for a company shut down or point the finger at somebody else and say why do they get a raise. Some people just can't handle the truth. I remember garbage men always complaining about their jobs around here. Now they have one driver and an automated arm that picks up the cans and dumps them in the truck. The only thing certain is change.
Bruce, last point and then I'm done discussing this. I've heard way too many union workers talking about what management gets paid and therefore they think their wages should increase. What a manager gets paid has absolutely nothing to do with what a unionized worker should be paid. If the management also owns the company, they have the right to run it into the ground if they so desire and it is not the unions place to gripe about it. If they're unhappy, leave and find another job elsewhere. If the company is publically owned, then it is the stockholder's position to deal with mismanagement. When times were good, the unions had no problem demanding more. When times are bad, they should be willing to make sacrifices, but they aren't. When they don't, they have no room to complain if the company goes belly up.
Well it's been a fun discussion and I do apologize if i offended anyone. The title was originally what caught me eye and even debated whether to say anything. I do feel like I need to defend my union. A lot of folks don't think well and when given a chance will bash them. I have worked both sides and see the benefits. Who wouldn't want a job where they can make more money and have benefits. There is a small percentage of bad seeds, but thats anywhere you go ..union or non. I've worked with a lot of guys while traveling on storms and most are the hardest working guys you'll ever meet. That small % always gets the most attention. If companies would treat their good employees good and their pay competitive, there would be no reason for a union....that just wouldn't happen. I not talking about all companies either ..don't want to lump them all together like whats been done to us. In the end we don't make these six figures like talked about above ..sure it's a good job but thats more money we will spend on or in businesses just like yours. If we don't get exactly what we want with this contract, it's not that big of deal..life will go on They will have a hard time finding a robot to climb a pole :D Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Apparently you are missing the point. Do you ever give yourself raises while asking the employees to take pay cuts because business is bad due to your mismanagent?
For years I made nothing and used credit cards to pay the rent and employees. I've used all my saved money to invest in an idea of a profitable business. So today I take the cream off the top so to speak and pay everybody what they are worth to the company. Bottom line I paid the cost to be the boss. I've worked for myself for 25years and unless you've done the same you'll never understand. I give raises yearly without being asked and everybody works their own hours and our free to work any other jobs they like. Problem is many people want someone to take responsibility for them and therefore do not take areal interest in their future. And there lies the real problem. After a while management gets tired of babying ungrateful employees that just think of themselves and end up screwing you in the end. It make employers really bitter after a couple of decades of it. Those who run their own business know what I mean.
Just a question as I have no dog for the fight, but... The guys "bashing" Unions, making a decent living working their no union labor job, whatever that may be... Can you say you would turn down the same job with double the wages and benefits... but your now a Union man? Just curious.
So to sum things up...most of your employees are selfesh babies who don't take responsibility for themselves and have scewed you over somehow? Just curious...what type of business are you in that you can't find better help?
Look, if you are pro-union you are going to defend it to the nth degree and not change, and you have that right. If you are anti-union, pretty much the same thing. As far as I'm concerned, unions anymore are nothing more than parasites who feed off the workers and employers alike (which is my right).
Im Non union in the same trade....... I agree with nebraska alot on this. I know a lot of good union guys but Know as many that use it to skate by . Also at my company we dont have the petty little union issues with the company. Our benifit package and wages are comparable to union shops. some of our stuff is better and some of theirs is better. yet the differences are not to great. Given a vote tomorrow i would vote against going union.
With everything that happens at a union level in the contract lune construction world. I dont think i would. Alot of contract union lineman i know dont work the 12 months a year, by choice or lack of work. I would go insane. And then to pay a rep x$ a month, idk. So. As far as nebraska. Being union line contractor would be suicide. Hard enough being corporate with hq being the other side of the country and have to compete with unsafe non corporate companies with no overhead. We can bid couple hundread thousand less than unions. Hard when the non corporate can bid hundread grand or more less than us.
The question of union vs. non union.... I have worked for several auto manufacturers in the last 9 years. Both foreign and domestic. Both union and non union. When I hear one of the dumbass U.A.W. chairpersons skipping around and taking credit for saving Detroit and how Obama saved the jobs and the U.A.W. and without them the big three wouldn't exist. I calmly turn my head from my computer screen and ask, "How has Toyota managed to do it all these years without one bit of a financial set back?" I usually get a blank stare. Conclusion : The unions had their place in prehistoric times. We can survive and be prosporous without them.
Not most but more than I would of thought of when I started. Bottom line is you have chiefs and you have Indians. It's all about priorities. Some people but a lot of value in quiting at 5pm and having a beer with the buddies or playing baskets ball or golf, hunting etc. for me I put work and security over leasure time, that is why I'm just now learning to hunt, fish and travel more. To each his own I guess.
When I was a kid I honestly couldn't say but I'm glad I took the route I did. I also don't play the lottery because I'm afraid what might become of me if I didn't have to work
Apart from the pro/con union debate, here is the piece that I just don't get. Who benefits when you piss off customers generating the revenue? The airline in question is already on the ropes...if they fold, the labor being union or not doesn't really matter many folks go unemployed. If they sell out, I think they would cut several employees and have to renegotiate the contracts. As a part of Ch11 contract renegotiations, any work slow downs would seem to be a show the power of the union and punitive to the company, intended to better the negotiating positions of labor v mgt, but it seems to me to be more like poisoning the well...as a consumer, I'm gonna take my business elsewhere. I can't afford to miss connections which may cause me to lose business, damage customer relations or cut into my personal time...
