Do you believe in "Divine Intervention"?

The Bible says children will eat curds and honey and then they will know right from wrong. (saying children will be past breast feeding before they know how to choose. The Bible also says that those who choose to accept Jesus go to heaven and those who don't will not. If a child is too young to be able to choose, then God would not judge them.

 

Maybe I misunderstood the question? Are we asking about adults who are ignorant or children? Or are we saying adults who are ignorant of the gospel get to go to heaven anyway? If that is the case... there would have been no need for Christ to have died... no need for any of the apostles to be sent... no need for the Holy scriptures... no need to define sin... in fact that would have been the most cruel thing possible and Jesus would have died for nothing... when God could have just left everyone to their own blissful ignorant and evil devices and as long as no one knows what sin is... it would just cease to exist... and there would be no difference between what is Holy and what is evil. Is that the question?

 

Read Romans 1... maybe it will make more sense.

 

Thanks. I was mainly questioning towards what happens when someone dies and is either naive to god or unfamiliar. Does god take any mercies on someone who has never really given a chance to learn his word? This has been one of my main hurdles in terms of my faith. I have had way to many "close calls" happen to not wonder what is really going on. I know there is something, just can't put a face to it.

Along those lines, what about the multitude of religions out there.... Which one is right? Do you believe god will punish other religions than your own upon death?

 

This is an example of why there are thousands of Christian Sects. Clearly the Bible says the Apostles will be Judges over the 12 Tribes of Israel, and since the gentiles must be an [adopted] member into these tribes (again, per the Bible), the Apostles will stand in Judgement. This is my belief from reading the scripture. Yours and mine differ, yet it is only when God reveals what is meant by this scripture can the truth of it be known. Man cannot define the Gospel. I.V., this is not meant as a polemic, just illustrating a point I was trying to make. I to believe God to not be vengeful, but loving and forgiving...thank God...literally, I mean thank God. Otherwise...

I didn't note who said it, but faith is rational. God does not expect us to have faith that 1 + 2 = 43. By the same token, it makes no sense that man would be held personally accountable for something he has no control over. As you said, 'sadly...as [you] understand it', if the doctrine is so repugnant that we cringe to believe it to be true, there are 3 options for me;
1. Categorically reject the doctrine
2. Blindly accept the doctrine, however repugnant
3. Place the doctrine on hold until my prayers are answered regarding the truth of the matter or the will of God.
For me, I try to do the latter. I have many many many questions regarding the Gospel that I struggle with. To my condemnation, I have allowed these questions to dwell in me to the point I no longer attend church service. This is me. If another is comfortable with their faith, as you appear to be, I would suggest you consider this an unanswered question and move on with life. For me, this question was a deal breaker regarding my search for a faith. I got to the point when a preacher would try to evangelize me I would bring this subject up. I was shocked to find how many faiths consider the souls of our brethren so easily discarded (not saying you are). I was shocked more to find many of the Christian faiths truly believe an infant dying short of baptism would be cast into the fires of hell, their words. I was a sailors sailor, disgusting to even the worst reprobates so for me to be shocked by something is an indication of how strongly I feel on this. Any way. There are answers in the scripture that point to a resolution of this problem, but few want to hear it. And no, I do not want to get into it. That is my belief, and would consider myself a colossal hypocrite to preach.
Reading this, it sounds like I kinda am preaching. Don't mean to. At this stage in my life I enjoy the intellectual pursuit of the philosophy regarding the question posed by the Chief. I guess it is a cop out. I feel so lame .

 

One can get lost in Religion and die in translations.
You are getting close my brother and you are right.
No other faith has seen the lamb become the Lion.
At the name of Jesus... Every knee will bow and every tongue confess. It is only complicated for the simple minded or the perverse to grasp and like babes we are called. The Holy Spirit will guide you if you can allow this.

 

My choice is number 1 with absolute certainty. There is nothing more to say about that.



May The Sheep Be With You

 

I guess I am simple minded.

I have done some reading into this and am still confused to the tact...

"God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Ro 2:6-10)"

In this I think I can see that there may be many paths to God by way of religions. Again, this can be one of those interpretation things. I find it hard to swallow, however, that a genuinely great person "who reject the truth..." can be cast to hell. Asking someone to devote their life to something we are only regaling from a book is a challenge at best. As I stated earlier, I have had quite a few notable close calls that have made me questions the signs..

A few years ago I came upon a wrecked vehicle. I was only able to spot the vehicle in my rear view mirror and even then it was a miracle. Emergency responders were blown away. Thankfully, I was able to pull the man from the vehicle and get him covered up. We left his wife in the vehicle as it began snowing. They flipped down a ravine and has a large boulder come through the windshield between them. Was that a sign?

I once fell from a tree while hanging a stand. I was 21 ft up and was unhurt. I'm sure that had to be a warning sign.

Those events definitely got the wheels spinning for me, but again I always come back to the "realism" view on it.

 

I have to admit, I am with you on this particular issue. The absurdity of damning a baby to hell for all eternity for anything is ridiculous. Still, the question then becomes, If faith in Christ is a (or the only) requirement for salvation, what of those denied the opportunity? Surely a plan of salvation would recognize this...

 

We are all given a "measure" of Faith. Obviously your spark is not dead, keep looking. There are many circumstances that are inexplicable and in my case I praise the Lord. When one attempts to "speak for God" train wrecks occur. Jesus loves children, soldiers, the foolish and the wise, Christ loves sinners and the Father will decide.
I will not be ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and hope others can receive the good news of the living saviour.

The student can not answer for the teacher.
Ask yourself.... what is the motive, where is the evidence.
Can you hear truth when it is spoken?

There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.

 

Spot that did nothing to answer his question other than saying that you don't have the answer and so someone less versed in the bible should go seek the answer.

The problem many of us are facing are the personal Interpretations which many other people of the same faith see as misinterpretation and not christian.

No idea what you meant by your last sentence seems kind of contradictory to what you're stating. Should one go find the answers in the bible or find a multitude of counselors for an answer? Aren't you causing a train wreck by stating god loves all who you mentioned since you're speaking for god? Aside from that I don't see how God can love everyone if he damns people for not believing in him when they didn't have the chance

 

Now you answer for others while insulting their intelligence.

 

Who did I answer for? I was pointing out discrepancies and contradictions. I hope you know this is a public forum and not private messaging.

 

I understand that you were pointing.

 

Mind blowing

 

Okay everyone... thanks for a mostly very civil discussion about perhaps the most divisive topic possible. I think we did rather well. Those who critically read my posts and responded... thank you for reading... that's all I can ask. If I caused any offense by any tone I interjected... I sincerely apologize. I did try to avoid any personal biases and certainly would not have intentionally caused anyone pain. Even though I spent a great deal of time in seminary... there is much I don't know. In fact, if there is one lesson I have learned, its exactly that. Even in seminary and among the faculty exists great diversity in almost every topic raised.

One statement I made I would like to mention is the idea that "faith is not rational." In the sense that what we believe about God, cannot be proven to the satisfaction of all, but must be accepted based on an inward conviction of His Spirit, faith is not. In the sense that much may be known... I believe it is very rational. I am sure there is plenty of debate that could take place about that topic.

To any who use scripture as a club... or just want to win an argument, let's please stop doing that. To those who would reject faith in Christ based on simply not thinking God should have done something a certain way... please know His wisdom far exceeds ours. For those who are dealing with the loss of a loved one or some other difficult situation... may God grant you both wisdom and peace that surpasses all understanding in His kind and gentle way. May God bless you all... MM

 

Muzzy. I'd have to make a hybrid assumption about religion. It requires logic, after all god made us intellectual beings and to smart enough to question the world. However, to me logically with what I know in the world, it would not seem possible a greater being exists since many of us don't believe in other intelligent lifeforms in the universe. To think a great being exists requires a leap of faith. Can anyone provide a rational explanation for how a far greater being exists in one short paragraph?
Science has mostly laid out how we came to be, provided it also requires some.leap of faith in believing theories and that those scientists were correct. The only thing I see about how we came to be in the Christian bible is genesis. It would sound logical if there is an omnipotent omniscient omni whatever being, after all they are limitless. But when I investigate the bible the discrepancies I see, seem to take away credibility in the existence of such a being.

I can imagine believing in a God. Is it wrong and would it damn one to hell if it is not a Christian god? I believe the Christian faith says yes. I don't like that answer. Can all the Christians in this faith say that they accept the whole bible? If you do, how do you deal with the infinite interpretations that other people have of the bible?

 

I wrote a term paper expressing a similar vain, that 'true' faith is a subjective-objective experience. It is subjective because to anyone else not experiencing the conversion (by the spirit) it is based on that persons unproveable experience. Yet to the person experiencing this, the conversion is real and objective. My prof was not impressed with my rational, though I did get a decent grade.

 

IMO, is it possible for God to have a created a greater being than us? I believe it is, and even that it is likely. Are they equal to us in God's eye? Reminds me of the Plessy vs. Ferguson Supreme Court Ruling of 1896 (where the Supreme Court ruled 7-1 for the Constitutionality of separate but equal laws established by Louisiana were legal, i.e., defacto segregation). We sure got that wrong. If God is omnipotent, surely he could create a race of intelligent beings that did not need a Savior, but would be equally loved by the Father? This ought to stir the pot....
I figure there are two things at work regarding Biblical discrepancies. The Books of the Bible were written by men a long time ago. Assuming what they originally experienced was the will of God, how could they interpret this accurately? And then how could further iterations of the Bible be expected to be understood, translated, and interpreted if the 'original' authors did not communicate a perfect message perfectly? I do not believe the Bible is the perfect word of God. But then, is that necessary? I think not. The essential message is still there, and, if the Bible is accurate to itself, the Holy Spirit should be able to fill in the relevant gaps.

 

One paragraph huh? LOL

There are many things Christians (true Christians) don't agree on. One has been brought up repeatedly in this thread, that of free will. Not all faith groups believe God grants free will to believers but predestines those who will believe. I could really make a very long list but won't. There are 10+- essential doctrines of Christianity... I won't list them that every Christian should believe. There are countless doctrines where disagreement exists... you are correct. One absolute doctrine that must be held to by all Christians is that Christ is the centerpiece of our faith. That He lived a perfect life and gave Himself for us as the only perfect sacrifice AND that He rose again on the third day... according to the scripture.

We can debate the rest til the cows come home... but this one doctrine must be believed. Paul said if the resurrection did not happen... we above all men must be pitied for our faith is in vain and we are still in our sins. Do we know for sure about what happened to Native Americans? Not for sure... I base my conclusions on a very careful study of Genesis and Romans. Here's something to consider.. if it helps. Instead of trying to solve every argument in your mind at once... man if I could solve all of them... Just deal with coming to grips with that one big question... Who is Jesus? As far as liking or not liking certain answers... just deal with the one question for now... that may keep you for a while... God bless you for your candor... that's worth bonus points in my book.