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Buying hunting land: bird-dogging some prime real estate on a shoestring budget

Discussion in 'Bowhunting Talk' started by quiksilver, Feb 24, 2009.

  1. quiksilver

    quiksilver Weekend Warrior

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    So, mortgage rates are down. First-time buyer incentives are up. At 5.25%, a $30,000 mortgage will run you about $250.00 a month for 15 years. $170 if you stretch it out to a 30-year mortgage. That's $2000-$3000 per year. To own. Most guys blow more than that on a lease or a one-week hunt.

    The new Obama tax credit is essentially giving an $8000 tax benefit to first-timers. If you're in a 25% bracket, that's a free $2000.00. Not much, but not bad.

    This begs the question - can the average guy afford a slice of prime whitetail real estate?

    I say he can.

    Let's look at things objectively: First, you need 2-3 guys who are reliable, trustworthy, and have solid credit and a reliable income stream (OR a chunk of cash collecting dust in the bank).

    Let's pretend that these 3 schmucks pool their resources, and split a 100-acre chunk of land 3 ways. To keep the taxes beat down, they make the executive decision to go ultra-cheap on a building. One step further, you can pick up a ratty pop-camper for a few bucks in the pennysaver.

    Obviously, whitetails aren't relegated to ritzy suburbs or areas proximate to nice interstates. This means, you've gotta get off the beaten path and find a swath of heaven way out in the middle of B.F.E. No golden triangle. No Pike County. You're looking for the hidden gem. Don't think "Buckmasters" or "Lee Lakosky." Think "The Hills Have Eyes."

    Ideally, you'd hope to find acreage surrounded by ag fields, or a narrow swath between larger parcels. Furthermore, you've gotta be cognizant of the target state's licensing requirements (drawings/prices/etc.). Keep the focus on areas that are within driving range, and you're guaranteed a license year-in, year-out. Talk to the prospective neighbors and see what page they're on. You can't "manage" deer on 100 acres. You just can't. It's gonna take a village . . . and a lot of POSTED signs.

    I've been looking, and I've found (what I would call) "prime" hunting land in a few areas for at-or-under 1000/acre, and with a little haggling, I think it can be done.

    Another thing to consider is that high-canopy, old timber isn't necessarily the best whitetail habitat. Timber has a value. A field today could be a foodplot or an orchard tomorrow. You might even be able to hawk the gas rights - or do a guided hunt or two - to help generate some more dough.

    Now, it's just a matter of time and waiting out the right deal.


    [​IMG]




    So what say you? Anybody else starting to test the waters? Is the King nuts? Unrealistic? Should we be getting our wheels on the road and beating the bushes for a good deal.

    Times are tight for some, but from my window, it looks like we're entering a buyers' market. If you're in position, it might be time to start putting the feelers out.
     
  2. dukemichaels

    dukemichaels Grizzled Veteran

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    While I agree with everything you're saying Fran...

    I think you should look.. keep your ears open.. and wait patiently.

    It's MOST definitely a buyer's market.. but the markets going to get worse.. which means more savings for those so inclined to purchase.

    Small businesses are next.. those small company's that thought they could weather this storm are in a real pinch now (or very soon).. and lots of those owners put their homes (or land) up for collateral..

    I think you have a good year from now before your at the lowest of the low.. and then it's time to open your check-book.

    If all haitis doesn't break out first of course.

    I think if you bought now.. or within the next 6 mos. a piece of land.. you'll kick yourself 6 mos. later.

    Don't pick the apple before it's ripe. So to speak.
     
  3. NY/Al

    NY/Al Weekend Warrior

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    If I was out of college and in the right financial situation I would certainly be on the prowl for some land right now. Im no market analist but I would say right now is the time to buy, I mean, how much lower can we go?? :confused:

    Im lucky as hell to be in the situation I am right now as far as land is concerned. If things keep up I wont need to look to buy land for a very long time (or ever). I am seeing an awful lot of for sale signs out though right now thats for sure.
     
  4. Buck Magnet

    Buck Magnet Die Hard Bowhunter

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    My family has been trying to pick up the property behind my grandfathers house for several years now, the sad thing is that the price just keeps going up. What I am about to say might shock you, so you may want to sit down..... this is 110 acres with roughly 85 acres being field and 20 acres of scrub brush with roughly 5 acres of timber..... the landowner is trying to sell the property..... for $1,000,000.00 Yes, that is right $9,090.91 per acre. Most of the land here in Indiana County is getting bought up at a ridiculous pace and people are asking for some crazy prices. The deer herd, down is size, is holding more trophy bucks than ever and people are cashing in. The farmer up the road from me was offered $4,000,000.00 for his farm last year, it is 500 acres that are divided by a road. Two farm houses and one small pond. Probablly 70% fields with the rest in mature timber.

    Around here is might be a buyers market if you are just looking for a home, but if you are looking for hunting property you are pretty much screwed.
     
  5. 130Woodman

    130Woodman Grizzled Veteran

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    Fran you have a good point but you have to wait like Mike said. I have a little inside info that says end of August to September would be a the best intrest rate seen in a long time. The option if you find the perfect chunk of land is put the offer to buy in with a closing date in September.Some people might bight on that. As for the timber I spot cut 90 acres of mine for pulp wood and got $17000.00 out of the deal so that is a good option to raise some cash after the sale. As for the gas rights you know more about that than I do.

    If you find people to go in with you tread lightly there. You have to find people that think the same way that you do. Otherwise it's going to turn into a cluster #$%@@. Equal time to do all the work and quality deer program. Great friends can be your worst enemy if your not on the same page. Land is a good investment no matter how you look at it. Good luck.
     
  6. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    Don't forget property taxes. Guided hunts are illegal without the proper licensing. Could work obviously...but there are alot of ifs in the statement. Hidden gems in hunting land are easier talked about than actually found though....remember, 10,000 other guys have your exact same idea..and with todays marketing/networking/advertising..whatever you call it, its hard to find a chunk of land that is a secret, as real estate info is made readily available to the public nowadays.

    Land around here, you really can't just buy to hunt off of, unless you are willing to fork out major coinage. costs are substantially higher than 1000/acre especially with todays price hike on "huntable" land.....heck, there are chunks of worthless creek bottoms bringing MORE than prime ag land because of Hunting..in some areas, it is absurd. There are CRP programs, Native grass programs, cattle, oil leasing, possible timber marketing....many ways to help cover the tab when it comes to land....but nearly all detract from the hunting aspect of it it seems. This native grass program they offer here is absolutely INSANE, in alot of cases the dang government would basically pay off your farm payment if you enlist it in the program to restore native grasses and not utilize the land...greatly helps hunting, and covers a HUGE chunk of the loan....but man, what another waste of government money through handouts...coming from someone whos grandads sole income is off this program now. It paid so well, he sold off all cattle and enlisted every open acre he had. Less than 500 acres, 30 THOUSAND dollars the first year...and for what?


    Good luck to all that try, obviously when the market is down, is the time to buy....and that goes for anything for that matter. Just think it is MUCH MUCH harder to actually pull off than to simply bring up. Finding 2-3 perfect partners will be hard enough, let alone the task of finding the right land chunk.
     
  7. Dubbya

    Dubbya Moderator

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    I agree with the king... for the most part. Unfortunately, I couldn't buy 1 acre of prairie dog town for $1,000. The cheapest thing I've found (literally) is $1,700 an acre and it's horrible stuff.

    I'm pretty sure that I'm going to either roll this cash into a down payment on another rental property or put it into investments when stuff hits rock bottom. Unless, the right piece of property hits me in the face... I'll be hunting the company lease.
     
  8. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    IMO, there isn't a smarter move available for those that have the credit to do so, than buying a house and having others pay it off for you..plus throwing you a little spending money on top of that. If you watch what you buy, you can really come away well in realestate...and now and upcoming times is the time to buy. If I had the money for a downpayment, I would be ALL OVER a few on the market right now.

    Smart Move Dubs, then here in 15-25 years when they are paid off in full, one house alone will give you more than enough income for hunting expenses for the year....Or you could trade it even for a nice chunk of land, at zero cost to you.

    Real Estate, when done wisely, is one of the best investments one can make, and relatively one of the safest. People HAVE to have a place to stay. They can cut back on many things, but renting a place to live is a neccessity in life for everyone not a homeowner.

    I will technically be a Pharmacist when I graduate, but with the current plans...I know where ALOT of my time and money will go into.:tu:
     
  9. MGH_PA

    MGH_PA Moderator

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    Ah, good man. My fiance is finishing her Pharm degree up as we speak. What an awesome field.

    Anyways, Quick, I don't know what it's like out near you, but I'm assuming you're experiencing the gas craze much more than us since many of the companies have an established presence/pipeline network in SW PA. Up here, it's a buyers market for HOMES. Land is NOT, and I repeat, NOT dropping in price. In fact, for the 6 solid months I looked and worked with realtors, people are not budging off their $4K-$8K/acre prices. Much of it is due to everyone now having the perception that their land is worth a small fortune because of Marcellus. Those who have leased, are either retaining rights and having an extremely tough time selling, or selling with rights, and still having a tough time selling. Land is not moving with the housing market, at least in my area. My fiance and I have the financial means to pay a little higher than norm prices for land, and were planning to do so, but opted to play it safe and get a starter home first, and wait for the PERFECT piece of ground, and pay whatever god awful amount we have to. I will NOT live most of my life on a 2 acre parcel, so whatever cost it comes at, I will make sure I have some land.
     
  10. dukemichaels

    dukemichaels Grizzled Veteran

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    While I like your enthusiasm TEmbry.. real estate can be VERY tricky.

    What they don't tell you in books and seminars is that while 50% of buying land or real estate is profitable.. the other 50% is NOT.

    It's ALOT more complicated than just buy and keep.. then sell. If it was easier.. everyone would do it.

    Prepare to pay ALOT up front and get nothing in return until you sell the piece off.

    But here's the trick.. unless you hit it right.. you ALWAYS loose.

    Banks get their money first... and after 20 years your $150,000 investment cost you $200,000 ($300,000 if you include all your upgrades.. taxes.. and rental income).(of course this is exagerated..it's actually more:cry: )

    It's funny how it works. And I should know.. I own rental properties.. and it's never easy.

    To make any money you have to be real smart.. know people.. and work the system. Don't let the sytem work you.

    If your spending your own money.. you already lost.
     
  11. TEmbry

    TEmbry Grizzled Veteran

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    We own 10 rentals as a retirement for my parents. All pay for themselves, and all will bring more if sold today then what was paid for them. With rental houses, there are two types mainly..More costly higher rent houses that dont cash flow much at ALL, but are a true investment that grows your money (long term), and the cheaper houses that have slightly less rent but cash flow 3-4x more...more for putting money in your pocket than a long term investment. By a crap house now, in 20 years..it is still a crap house. By a nice house now, and maintain it, and it is still a nice house in 20 years.

    The two main reasons people dont do rental properties is because of laziness and not enough credit. You can't take out a loan for rentals no matter how good of an investment if the bank wont give you the money. AND rentals are alot of work to upkeep as tenants move in and out, and can be a headache to keep track of with all the payments coming in and going out.

    The real money comes, not from selling off, but from renting them out once paid off IMO. Obviously if you had 10 houses worth 150k you could sell out once they are paid in full and get 1.5 mill, OR you could keep them and cash flow nearly everything out of rent approaching 1k per month per house. with no mortgage to pay, one can cash flow WAY over 50% of incoming rent, way over, and by the time current houses are paid off...rent will be substantially higher here in 20 years. I agree, to be on the winning side, it is a long time of alot of work with relatively little fruits of your labor, but once paid...they basically become more than a full time income on their own.

    If anyone is loosing money renting a house, it is a terrible investment and should have never been bought in the first place. A good rental pays for itself including taxes insurance and mortgage, and gives you some cash flow per month which usually ends up being spent on upkeep/repairs. Just have to watch the market for the right deal on the type of house you are looking for, have the credit to get the loan, and strike when the opportunity arises. FSBOs and auctions can produce some great deals if you know what you are doing going into it.

    I pretty well know the rental game for our local area (small scale here locally) from dabbling in it with my dad. We have discussed it several times, and so long as you have some common sense and arent afraid to put in the elbow grease yourself when it comes to painting, cleaning, etc between tenants.....there is ALOT of money to be made. We have come to the conclusion that the cheaper higher cash flow houses tend to be the more risky ones. The longer term houses seem to be harder to screw up so long as you arent a complete dufus when looking to buy.

    Thread Hijacked, back to farms.:d
     
  12. Dubbya

    Dubbya Moderator

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    Duke, I agree to an extent. I agree that if you're not smart it can be a huge headache and an even bigger loss. However, there are lots of things you can do to both protect yourself and make it a profitable venture. I agree that other than money to get involved, it's better on someone elses dime. I definitely believe in short notes and paying extra on your principle from the get go, that's the only way that you can "get your hand in the corporate pocket." Rental properties can be an extremely lucrative deal as well.

    For instance I purchased this house strictly as a rental property, being on the OU campus it's probably the strongest rental market in the state. This property will be rented for $500 over the payment, plus $100 extra on the principle, plus $100 for maintenance per month. Therefore it'll pay for either $500 of the place where I live or on another property.
     
  13. quiksilver

    quiksilver Weekend Warrior

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    MGH - you're definitely right. SW PA is in the middle of a real, live gold rush. This run on natural gas is off the chain. Obviously, as BuckMagnet said, it's driving our real estate values through the roof! Pittsburgh is one of the only real estate markets showing consistent GROWTH over the recent economic downturn. I've been watching this market carefully - and it seems like the only "great deals" coming down the pike are the occasional foreclosures held by non-local banks (Fannie, etc.) Everything else has remained fairly static.

    The key is, getting OUT of this marcellus shale belt, and getting AWAY from Pittsburgh.

    I'm looking for a lot to build on, and the area I'd like to live in . . . developers are trying to get 100K+ per acre. Without subsurface rights. LOL

    The key is finding the depressed areas that hold trophy whitetails and striking there. Logan, Mingo, Wyoming and McDowell Counties in southern WV come to mind.


    Dustin - renting in a college town is a failsafe plan. If I ever get into the rental business - thats the kind of protected market I'll be targeting. Smart move.
     
  14. MNKK

    MNKK Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Yeah, the land that we hunt on right now is actually up for sale. They want 3 mil for it. It is about 110 acres too.
    It has been up for sale for over three years.
    It has everything though. With some work, food plots, etc. Prime land for everything. It has Deer, grouse, turkey, yotes, squirrels (lol). Yes. I can honestly see making bank off of this land, however. Not that much.

    The land itself, is across a rural hwy from a refuge (no tresspass). It has a stream running through the middle, Hardwoods, tall grass, a pine lot, grass fields, thick, thin. Everything. I swear, with a food plot. It would be heaven.
     
  15. magicman54494

    magicman54494 Weekend Warrior

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    Fran, you have a great idea. The big kicker is finding the other 2 guys.
    In my area land prices have been going up at a 10-17% increase for a bunch of years and has leveled out and remained steady for a few years now. House prices have dropped but land prices haven't. I believe the land prices will adjust down soon. In my area it would be wise to wait a while. ps. I would have a detailed agreement with your partners including an exit plan.
     
  16. in da woods

    in da woods Grizzled Veteran

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    Real estate like that, land only, usually doesn't go down in price. Just the other way in fact. I know some land that has been for sale through a realtor. The owners were asked if they would lower the price. Their response was, nope we'll just wait it out. Now granted there may be some others out there that may have some financial problems causing them to sell the land, but those are very far & few between. As for the housing market that's different. I have a coworker that owns a condo in Flor. & he told me of a $250K house is now going for $68K and no one's buying down there. Land is just that, an investment. Most people are protective of their investments w/land and have that for a security blanket for pensions, etc. They won't sell cheap unless they are absolutely at wits end.
     
  17. huntingson

    huntingson Weekend Warrior

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    It is your first need that ruins the rest for you. My advice is to NEVER, NEVER, NEVER buy land (or any other solid asset that cannot be easily split) with other people. People change over time, priorities change, friends come and go. When it comes to something like land, trust yourself. If you want it, go get it. Don't rely on anyone else if you don't have to. General rule of life for me after many, many lessons learned. Sounds bad, but it is the truth.
     
  18. buttonbuckmaster

    buttonbuckmaster Grizzled Veteran

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    Ground prices keep getting higher and higher here. The problem is, few are selling. The owners won't lower the price, so they keep it on the market a year or more. Alot of the ground in my area is selling to NR's. People see "hunt Illinois" and break out the benjamins. ;)

    I'd sit back and wait Fran. Honestly, I'd sell my house and ground if I got a fair offer. we're ready to move to a different school district.
     
  19. magicman54494

    magicman54494 Weekend Warrior

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    Here's something that will make you sick. Back in the early 70's land in Northern Wis. was selling for 25-50 dollars /acre. People said with soo much public land why should I buy land. Now land thats not under water sells for about $2000/acre.
     
  20. 130Woodman

    130Woodman Grizzled Veteran

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    I bought my origanal 90 acres 18 years ago for $244.00 an acre. Then I bought a 40 next to it in 2005 for $1500.00 an acre. That was sticker shock.

     

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