True that. Mr. Infalt had a scouting workshop in my area a couple years ago. It was a bust, he couldn't find any buck beds or anything of any substantial substance for that matter. Some people will spend insane amounts of time setting in a tree, day after day, after day, in awesome target rich environments, with the best genetics in the country. Then after the kill, explain where, how and why they set up where they did, and...where, how and why the deer did what it did...it's extremely easy to make the scenario fit the narrative after the fact. I'm guilty of doing it myself, theorize on what I believe happened instead of what really happened....shave and cut on the effect until it fits my cause, lol. Not only that, but someone who is creative can make one single scenario fit a large number of narratives to hang there success on....which is why there is so much confusion, contradictions, misinformation in the hunting community...but this also feeds the machine which is product and information.
Well it helps the story if a person fills in the blanks. As hunters I think many want to fill in the blanks and know the answers to our questions. Especially with big bucks. My opinion on mature bucks is that they don't do anything random. They bed in a certain area and have their specific core hiding spots that they like. They may shift from location to location based on security, food, wind, predators, and also does (especially during the rut). I think their movements are not random either. I don't think mature bucks get up and go for a stroll when they feel like it. I think their movements are dictated by their needs and the amount of movement depends on the time of year.
I think your opinion is spot on. Which takes us back to the beginning. If a mature buck's actions were random, there would be no core.
And this leads to another important question. How much of buck's actions are conscious and how much is subconscious? Subconscious actions lead to predictability through tangible things....conscious actions are much harder, they're within a bucks head and encompass a variety of individual personalities.
Been scouting a lot already this year. Looking back on this year and the previous year, I've determined I have three, real good doe bedding areas in about a 300 acre or so triangle of woods. I started looking at all the edges and creek crossings and noticed something....one connector creek crossing that is real close to being in the middle of all the known doe bedding areas is hammered with deer tracks. Looking at the topographical map it makes complete sense this would make an awesome spot.....but only after knowing the doe beds are positioned that way on the terrain. I have a real mental hold up hunting spots between bedding areas bc I haven't gained the confidence in hunting them. Not a lot of experience. I've had a alot more success hunting right up on the beds....although that kind of hunting can be hit or miss. I think if I hunted those hubs more often I might get more consistent buck movement. Only one way to find out....do it. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking abut this. I always have felt that I can use my dogs behaviour as a barometer on how a deer might function for conscious/subconscious behavior. Probably sounds silly but I think deer probably have more conscious thoughts that affect behaviour than many people probably think.
That is one of the biggest things I see many hunters (my hand is raised as well) make mistakes with. Just because even 1 or 2 bucks you hunt behave in a similar fashion, even in the exact same area certain bucks will interact and move or utilize topography, cover, bedding preferences, field entrances/exits differently. While every action should be learned from, we cannot assume it will repeat consistently across the board. Each buck is truly like us humans, an individual. Are there typical deer tendencies, sure...but I've yet personally to figure out any two bucks enough to say they behaved identically. Amen, however one must always attempt after the fact to ascertain the reasons why leading up to it if not known. Some of the best knowledge I've ever learned is back tracking a bucks movements prior to harvest as far as I can...chances are a tremendous amount can be learned.
I personally view them as creatures incapable of analyzing details and making a decision based upon that analysis. IF they could they truly would only be able to be harvested after dark and with night vision. That said, they are driven through through instincts to survive and carry on their kind...through interactions and reactions tendencies or lessons if you will (Pavlov's dog) can be learned and as they age their survival instincts are definitely honed. Does a doe choose to use one trail with an East wind because she laid in her bed and thought about it...IMO no. However, she does so when instinctively it makes the most survival sense for her in that specific moment. They are similar to a burglar alarm in that sense...they have incredible senses which can set them off but in the end that are reactive animals driven by survival...they are not proactive in their thought process..at least not in my opinion.
a lot of you guys have touched on this; but suffice to say that human presence does not equal human pressure. Some of the biggest bucks I have ever seen in daylight are on CRP-type pockets of terrain bordering industrial areas. Just monsters. Usually corporate-owned and unhuntable. I used to hunt a 7 acre parcel adjacent to a GM plant and railhead. I was young and didn't really know what I was doing so I would frequently blow them out walking in in the dark; but suffice to say that I would see some monsters strolling around just on the GM-side of the 9' security fence without a care in the world. I managed to kill my first buck ever on that 7 acre parcel while I was walking out for lunch...you never seen a more surprised deer in your life than that buck when we came face to face on the trail. I don't think anyone other than my dad and I had walked that property much less hunted it in many years. If I had a few more seasons under my belt I'm sure I would've had a chance at one of the bruisers.
I don't believe deer have the ability to reason, plan, or analyze. I do think they are creatures of survival, instincts, and experience. I do believe that deer do and can learn. I think anyone who has encounters with mature deer understand that they are much different than younger ones.
I have nothing of significance to add to this thread, just want to say it's one of the better ones in quite a while. Great discussion.
Yup! This is the stuff that keeps us up some nights...distracted while driving...or not on task while working....LOL
...I largely agree but the fact is that they can (and do) learn- for the past 5 seasons, I have hunted the same 40 acres in Adams Co WI. Wolves are starting to get pretty thick there. Over the past 2-3 seasons; I have personally seen a major shift in bedding behavior. The only thing I can think of is it is a response to wolves. Anecdotally, I have read and heard that deer in Canada ("wolf country") bed and move with their backs to the wind and eyes front so they don't get snuck up on...whereas in non-wolf country they don't worry much about anything sneaking up on them from behind while they're moving. On our property, the deer used to bed down in the bottoms along the thick edges next to an old clear cut. It was easy to slip through the middle of the property over the ridges to our stands. Now, they bed in the middle of the property on more open elevated ridge points; backs to the cliff edges with eyes front. It's really hard to get to our stands without blowing them out.
I had an argument all typed out against the notion deer are purely instinctual. As I read over it before posting, I realized that ignorance is bliss and the realization that deer are sentient on some level is only going to make it harder for some to cope with the killing part of hunting. I'm not sure winning that argument is doing anyone any favors. I will stop at saying I believe only plants and bugs are purely instinctual. Disclaimer**** And when I used the word ignorance, I mean that with all due respect. Just meaning unknowing that deer are (or may be ) capable of conscious thought. I'm not calling anyone stupid. Well maybe Tyni...just a little, lol. jk jk
LOL....again read through my thoughts though. They like any mammal I'd suspect can and do learn different actions can and do affect their survival. It is all merely to what degree does one define conscious thought? I will not state definitives, however if they were truly capable of conscious thoughts to the degree some feel, they truly would never be legally harvestable.....or at best rarely. I take it back to that doe bedded down...when she gets ready to move what drives her decisions? I don't believe she is compounding all of her life experiences, reflecting and making a decision. A mind capable of being conditioned to responses and analytical thinking differ for me personally, but I can see how some would say to some level both are same in that they both require some conscious ability.
I think the subconscious and conscious thought statement I made was taken a little deeper than I intended it. I don't believe a deer has the ability to reason, plan or analyze. I do believe a deer is aware (conscious) of their surroundings. And I don't believe a deer wonders through the day continuously reacting to everything...I believe they have the ability to act also. I've seen way to many buck's on a mission to believe other wise. When I rattle a buck in he is reacting, but when he locks up at 80 yards out and starts to circle my location he has stopped reacting and started to act. Like Rick James said, I would think a deer would be capable of what my dog is and he's pretty sharp.
In order for a buck to be an individual or have a distinct personality, would that not require consciousness to a certain degree? Individualism is defined as freedom of action. It's not some cookie cutter reaction that always fits the molded.
I'm not sure whether they have the ability to think, but I do know that they seem to have different personalities. Last year I had two nice (140") bucks on camera. First one was everywhere I had a camera and he loved selfies. 60+ photos. The other guy I got 3 pics of. First one is a partial pic and a tree is screening the deer, another is him 25yrds out, staring at the camera, and the third is him busting out of there. Nothing since August. The only difference I can hazard to guess might be age but I can't prove it either way. Sent from my XT1710-02 using Bowhunting.com Forums mobile app
EXCELLENT post Ty!! I love the Pavlov reference!! Humans ability to reason/thought process is our survival skill, which puts us at the top of the food chain. I do think deer can be "conditioned" to a limited extent when it comes to behavior. Example that comes to my mind is when I owned property, In the winter when I was clearing land for a food plot. As soon as I'd fire up the chainsaw, 2-3 does always came in within 20 yards, waiting for the downed limbs with buds on them. I posted a video a few years back on here, of that happening.
I bring my outside dog in the house when it gets down into the single digits (he's like Pavlov's dog, poor things not to bright, lol). I also have a inside dog and he hates the outside dog being in the house. One day this winter my inside dog was laying on the couch looking at my outside dog. All the sudden, my inside dog jumps up, run's around the living room barking and over to the front door growling and barking...of course my outside dog jumps up and runs to the door also. I get up to let them out, and my outside dog barrels out the door barking and my inside dog turns around, climbs back on the couch and lays back down. It was so funny...and he dose things like that all the time.
