You've lost me now Mike. 'We' created (In 100 years, no less!) the concentrated fawn drop in whitetail deer, which consequently is bad for deer fawn predation (according to you) but works for recruitment in other species??
From your article: "Breeding must occur so fawns are born when their survival chances are best." I think this is what I said in my first post (below) and truely does answer the original question that TeeJay posted as to "why does the rut occur when it does?" I will still argue that the timing of many births at the same time period is also for predatory reasons also.
They aren't as brazen up here! Between the wolves and bears, they rarely charge head long into a bleat call. Besides, that is a secondary response. The initial response is to flee leaving the fawn (or fawns) bedded in hiding. I'm not taking either side on this one, because I think both are right... to a point. Whitetails are successful because of their ability to adapt to most environment found in North America. Yes they have similarities and tendencies, but we too ofter expect all whitetail to behave the same way everywhere. Here's an example. In my part of the country, deer yards are common throughout the winter months. But even here, there are a large number of deer that never yard up. They stay in their relative summer range and eat the available food source there. Too often, I think, we look at things in the natural world as being balanced on a scale like "Lady Justice". 'Numbers in WI are down so its those damn wolves!' Yes, there is a balancing act in nature, but its much more like a clown balancing 15 spinning plates on sticks, in the wind... and rain.... It's never an either or, the causes are infinite and have varying levels of effect on a given species. I see the rut as a concentrated, but not limited (or certain) time that does will be coming into estrus. Weather, heard ratio, photoperiodism, Latitude, nutrition, does age, human pressure, and individual habitat all are factors in when any particular deer or group of deer breed and in turn give birth. I dunno, I just think that too many hunter see it as 10 days where every deer in the woods will be running around breeding 24/7. There's so much more to it than that..... Sorry for the tangent!
Hmmm yeah, and gave us global warming. (In the 70's it was a coming Ice age scare. Also "Modern Science") The Fawn drop issue was all I disagree with in your original post. From a strictly "predation" stand point fawns would be safer if they all dropped in the same hour. There are only so many predators to go around.
If you guys think does drop fawns in a small time frame to defeat predation... it's not the reason. They drop in a small time frame to get the best nutrition in an area when it can produce it... especially in the northern regions. Not only do they need a high nutrition diet for producing milk for the fawns... but also to gain back what they lost during winter... to sustain there bodies so they can raise healthy fawns. Young does are also growing. End of story. To defeat predation... fawns are born almost scentless. The does birth and move them a little ways once the can walk since that area is contaminated. The does pick a spot to hide her fawns. She never goes back to that exact spot for the most part. Going back to that exact spot would defeat the purpose of not scenting up the area. When she needs to nurse them... she stands a liitle ways away from the area and calls them to her. Once done nursing... they go back to their hiding spot. Does a large fawn drop in a short time defeat predation. Yes to some degree... but it has nothing to do with why the majority of does are dropping fawns in a short time frame. Dukes example of Southern deer and a prolonged rut/ birthing season proves it. Our northern deer just don't have the luxury of a long growing season. We have a smaller deer population and a better buck to doe ratio... which also are big factors for a shorter rut/fawn drop which... again... is determined for nutrition not predation. Whitetails are highly adaptable and there is a lot the experts just don't know and are in the process of just finding out or still trying to find out. I still remember getting beat up bad a couple years back when I posted doe fawns can be bred. Now we have the naysayers posting they are seeing doe fawns getting bred. Imagine that. LOL Tim
Alot of valid points. With the disagreements between a few of you (of which I think both of you know your crap) my question still isn't answered. Why does the main breeding take place at WAY different times in set locations? If it goes of moon phase/daylight hrs. Why is it so different between Mn and Tx. Or Nd and Ga? Moon phase is moon phase and daylight hrs are the same where ever you are.
There's certainly much more to it than just moon phase. Like length of daylight, temperature, food sources, etc. I attended a conference a few years ago on the Asian carp. It drove me nuts to listen to these Professors research. They would make assumptions then check only a one or two variables (Like water levels, temp, oxygen level, etc). Then wonder why it didn't always correspond. I felt like standing up and yelling at these guys "Check all the variables you can." There is no one key. Until we learn how they all work together we will just keep guessing.
Year in an year out. The most deer movement an chasing starts somewhere from The 3rd week of October to the second week of November. I try to hunt the week after full moon during that time period. That is when I see my most bucks as long as the weather is ok. This year I saw Thirty bucks the week of the 9th in November an they were very vocal an were trailing does. This was also the week I seen "Tank" an a few more that I got pictures of bucks during the week. I have kept track an the week after full moon has always been the week for me.
I believe that the moon is one of the biggest factors in the timing of the rut. That explains the discrepency between Texas and Minnesota. Charlie Alsheimer and his buddy Laroche have done some convincing research on this. I learned a long time ago to not do another man's research, so feel free to dig around for yourselves. I think one part everyone is overlooking is genetics. So much of the whitetail's world is dominated by genetics. When bucks shed their velvet, when they shed their antlers , when does come into estrous, how long their gestation period will be, how good of a mother they will be, blah blah, etc. etc. I believe that gives Mike's argument of relocation validity. That is why a doe may come into estrous October 1st, November 2nd, December 3rd, January 4th, February 5th or MArch 6th (yes there has been written documentation of breeding activity as late as March). Why? Because a doe relocated from Wisconsin to Alabama may come into estrous November 1st just her like mother, grandmother and great grandmother did, because of genetics. Genetics, genetics, genetics.. the sooner hunters realize how important this facet of the game the easier they will understand such subjects.
Photoperiod triggers each individual doe seperately across N/A. Its all about photoperiod. Each doe has a genetic code individual to her and her alone. Whitetails across different regions of N/A have evolved and passed on the most favorable genes for the local area, in regards to optimal weather, feed availability etc for timing a fawn crop. Deer herds are far different in relation to predators than say elk. Cow elk herd up and the cows often calve in very close proximity to each other during a short window of time. Whitetails on the other hand go off into their own little nook and give birth and their dates are more spread out. Most cows are covered in a short period of herding by bull elk, unlike bucks that travel miles to and from doe group to doe group, especially in big country. In areas of heavy predation like here in northern Idaho you get very low deer densitys spread out over thick rugged terrain. Predators like black bears, wolves and mountain lions can scoop up several elk calves in a few days in a small area versus having to seek out and find scattered out does. I believe many elk sacrifice their lives during calving and save a few fawn whitetails in return because they are such easy pickings for the big predators. Whitetails have proven that they are by far the most adaptable of deer species, obviously their herd structure and rutting biology has a lot to do with it. Our does out here have photoperiods that kick in as early as the last week of Oct and they trickle into early november with the peak/most photoperiods trigging during the last week of November and into the first week of Dec. Then we get a trickle of a few adult does and many young does photoperiods triggering well into Christmas.
Kind of. It wasn't until about two years ago that I realized that different doe groups were coming into estrous at different times (slight differences) and made the connection that it had to do with genetics. We hunt 265 acres so it's very likely that all the deer utilize our property at some point. But, through on stand observations and trail cam inventory we've learned that we does call certain areas on our property home. There are essentially two groups. One that roams the South and East of the property and one that roams the North and West. The Southeast deer are bigger, sport larger racks and the does are heavier and the fawns healthier. The Northwest deer are quite the contrary, but the SE does will generally become hot 2-3 days before the does that utilize the NW section of the property.
Might I add >>>>BAM<<<< Im agreeing with Christine on this one, All does cant come in at the same time because of age differences, kinda like you cant have a 5 yr old girl on her period, a fawn is not gonna be on the same cycle as an ol' Nanny. Also, a flood of animals does give a better survival rate, fish or not, lets see ducks flock together, bachelor groups of Bucks, a herd of Does, an individuals survival odds go up if your in a bunch, if there are 50 fawns in 2 weeks( on lets say 2000 acres) then you got a better chance for survival if say 25% dont make it. If 50 fawns are born over 3 months, then the coyote can take its time, pick them off one by one when its convenient and take a break to plan out his next attack. Just my .02 cents.
No.. no.. no.. Chris.. we've (in the last 100 years) created the UN-concentrated fawn drop of the whitetail through our transplanting of different sub-species and the such. This goes back to the original posters Q about why there can be such difference in rutting behavior anywhere in the country. Their are ENTIRE state studies which prove this. I think (and someone would have to look this up) in the state of Mississippi or Alabama (forget which one) they have whitetail that breed throughout the state for like 3 months. As they have transplanted deer from the north that still rut like a month before the more native southern deer too. And this happens in nearly every state.. where whitetail were transplanted. Thus.. we helped to 'create' one of the most adapted animal on the planet. Sorry if I mislead you the other day.. was updating from my wifes phone actually.. which is very hard to do mind you. Tiny words and keypad make Mike frustrated.
Mike. I was being facetious. I merely took you to task for your simple (and incorrect statement) about a spread out fawn drop being better to fight predation. You went on a GMMAT tangent and I found this entertaining. I wasn't being misled.. just trying to annoy you. heh heh heh... xoxo.
Why do deer in different areas of the USA breed at different times? Simple question? Moon phase is the same daylight hours are the same. If anything up north they should drop later when things green up and ma nature is more forgiving.
If they dropped much later, their body size would be much less sufficient to survive the harsher winters up here. They need to be able to put on as much size as they can through our entire "growing season", as short as that may be. Same reason we find the 250#+ Brutes in the north woods and not all too ofter in Texas. Also, Latitude has a huge effect on daylight hours. At the equator you have fairly equal daylight vs. night all year round. Here, you're can get over 16hrs of sunlight in the summer and as little as 9hr near the winter solstice. Northern Alaska, dark for months... Again, I think that these are all factors in helping cue some populations of whitetails, but it's never the same across the board. Keep in mind that there are also at least 16 subspecies of whitetails recognized north of the US/Mexico border. (link)
