I just posted this as a response to another thread elsewhere on the 'net... thought it warranted a discussion here as we've brought on so many newbies in terms of this forum and new-to-our-sport people as well...
I can blow through the shoulder joint and/or upper end of the humerus.... ...with a shotgun or rifle. :D
I shot a buck at 5 yards two years ago and my broadhead stuck in it's offside shoulder knuckle. There was no way that broadhead was going through that thing.
Interesting point. I took a buck several years back that I actually hit a bit forward and it went through scapula. Now, that buck was ever so slightly quartering to me. I think you need to keep in mind that bone can and does move quite a bit with the entire shoulder. For the new guys here, I had absolutely no intention of shooting that buck that far forward. I said he was slightly quartering to me, and I mean slightly. Any more and I would have either waited for a better shot or left him walk. Quartering to you is not a high percentage shot. That said, broadheads play a significant role, IMO, on these "off shots". What I mean is, even if you wait to take the perfect shot, sometimes things just happen and you don't make the shot like you intended. You might hit forward, as in my case, the deer might move slightly during the shot or you may hit a small limb that you didn't see, deflecting your arrow slightly. If you hit bone, like the scapula, most of those big cut broadheads, like a Rage, for example, probably won't help you much. You want a head that is strong, uses a chisel style tip and has the ability to break bone. I was fortunate with that buck. I was using an old Rocky Mountain Snyper XP3. It was an expandable that looks exactly like a Rage 3 blade, only slightly smaller and had a chisel style tip instead of a razor tip. That head actually blew completely through the scapula and 3/4 of the arrow was hanging out the other side when he ran off. He expired within 60 yards. I have since switched to Slick Trick heads. Steel construction, chisel tip sharp, heavy duty blades and compact design. The reason I left the mechanicals behind was I wanted simplicity and strength. It was more of an insurance thing for me. I wanted a head that may help if the shot isn't exactly perfect. I strive to make the perfect shot, we all do. But what if its not? I want to know that I have a head that may help me rather than hinder me in those cases.
At least it was the offside shoulder. I don't worry about the offside. It is the on-side that I'm worried about. I hit the biggest buck I have ever seen while hunting last year directly in the shoulder with a Montec. I used the montec because it is supposed to be an awesome penetrator but it didn't get through the shoulder. I got about 6 inches of arrow in him (broken off when he ran) with about 4 more inches of blood and hair on the arrow. I would have thought that deer was dead but it was never found. The boardering property is ran by an outfitter. He scoured his property too and the deer still wasn't found. Greg, you're right. In exactly the wrong part of the shoulder, you are not getting through it with an arrow and broadhead.
All I can say is if you keep shooting at the shoulder eventually you will be sorry. I give myself a little room for error by aiming back a bit.
I had it happen with a Grim Reaper head shot out of my old bowtech general. the shot was about 30 yards, the BH tip only went in about 1 1/2 inch !! I found the arrow laying on the ground with a little blood just on the tip & small bits of bone stuck in the ferrel.
I have broken a LOT of opposite side shoulders on deer(I'm talking the thick ridge part), even a couple of bigger bodied bucks. I really don't think it takes much to do when the arrow is coming from the "inside". And by that point you've made a good shot and the deer is in a lot of trouble. I only have one occasion where I hit a shoulder on the way in and that was a doe, down near the joint. The joint separated, but the bone did not break and I got almost no penetration. BUT I did get enough to eventually track her down a good while later.(a good while meaning she was alive, not that it took me long) Now the flat part of the scapula I don't really even count that as the shoulder, I've blown thru that so many times I've lost count.
Absolutely agree with all advice here... ...but I would like to test Rob's (KodiakArcher) new water buffalo setup on a whitetail scapula
id say you were dead on by stated that the arrow was actually going thru the flat part, not the knuckle/joint. christine loved the pick you post a while back of that pork scapula you pushed that muzzy thru
My set up last year Isn't as heavy as Robs but It Is still heavy (704 grains). I was using a single bevel 2 blade BH with 320 grains on the end of the arrow. 220 grain BH with a 100 grain brass Insert. Here's a little story from last year.... A friend called saying he hit a doe In the brisket area and needed some help getting her as she was still alive and well. 3 of us showed up and set up way ahead of where this doe was. He then jumped on the blood trail and started tracking her again. He came upon her and shot her In her bed at 15 yards. She got up and ran another 50 yards and bedded. I snuck with In 15 yards of her as she was still bedded. I zipped another arrow In her while she was bedded but hit farther ahead then I wanted to. I got both lungs but I also penetrated both shoulder blades. Never have I penetrated through two shoulder blades before. You gotta remember too that she was laying down. Animals that are laying down also are tough to penetrate for some reason or another as well. That Impressed that hell out of me. It was all about the BH If you ask me. This doe was huge too, she dressed out at 135lbs. The year before I hit a 4.5 year old buck In the bigger part of the shoulder blade. He lived through It being I didn't penetrate through It enough. A year later a guy 1/2 mile away shot this buck with his ML. I went to this guys place and looked at the skinned out buck to see where I hit him In 2009. I hit him where I thought. Not In the knuckle but just above It and a little back from the big web In the blade. The whole blade cracked from one end to the other, It was full of calcium build up. I was shooting a huge 3 blade Snuffer that year. It was my 1st year shooting this huge 1 1/2 cutting diameter Snuffer and It was also my last year. Just too big of a BH when It comes to bones. Had I been shooting my normal smaller 1 1/4 3 blade Snuffer chances are that buck would be on my wall. I know for a fact after seeing what my single bevel 220 grain Outback Supreme did on that doe's 2 shoulder blades that the bigger part of that shoulder blade on that buck wouldn't of been a problem. Russ Kanga told me these Outbacks would and will penetrate bone, man he was right!!
Steve, You know anybody that's tried the Outback's out of a high-speed compound? Curious if they'd group well at longer ranges - sure would be nice to have the little extra chance should a shot encounter bone. My Muzzy's have done me well though, but have never hit the thick part of a shoulder...better knock on wood
Russ (Kanga) did prior to switching to his longbows. His set up was killer. One I would do In a heart beat If I was shooting a compound. If you want his number PM me.
The Outback supremes group just fine at 50 yards, as far as I have shot them, at 260 fps. Part of the reason they do so well on bone, as well as other BH's built like them, is the Tanto tip and the single bevel. The Tanto tip holds up extremly well against hard surfaces (bone in this case) whereas other tips may curl and the single bevel twisting action helps to split/seperate the bone. Dr. Ashby covers all of this in depth in his writings.
Steve/Bruce, thanks for the info...might be something to tinker with...as it looks like the Outbacks have multiple Grain options... Steve, I still have Russ's number from last summer when I had the "pass-a-round" longbow of his...man that was a sweet shooter. Most of all I miss Russ's build-a-long threads...does he even have a pc anymore?
Not sure If he has a pc anymore. Been a couple months since I last talked with him. One of these days I should give the old fart a call to shoot the ****.
