Your sniveling diatribe aside,.........you didn't answer my question.... At known yardages, please cite the advantages of a flatter trajectory. So, I'm a God, now? Who knew? Ever heard the term "Ad Hominem Attack"? It's usually what some people resort to, when their argument doesn't hold water on its' own merits. Your referenced diatribe, above, is a classic example.
A better question is why are you so bothered by people pointing out heavier arrow has many merits? I have no dog in this fight, but from an outsider looking in, you look extremely bothered when someone points out the merits of a heavier setup.
If one has a small window he will increase his odds of not deflecting an arrow. The theory holds water, the poster can ethically kill deer with a 367gr setup and shoot flatter. He has no reason to go heavier than he is already shooting because he has more than ample KE.
Don't you have to ask yourself.......if a hunter is asking questions about arrow weight.....is he advanced enough in his shooting abilities to realize an advantage (debate-able) in shooting through "windows"? I know I don't have the experience level to "think" I could realize that advantage. And, that kinda works both ways. That "window/obstacle" could just as coincidentally be one you could shoot OVER as it would be for you to shoot through. Really.....it's OK to disagree. I don't hold any ill feelings towards you, personally, for holding the views you do. I've shot arrows at deer at nearly 300fps......and I've shot arrows at deer at 180fps. I've had success and failures at both speeds (and speeds in-between). But, I've never had a failure, due to penetration, at the 180fps speed. If 180fps and <35FP/KE is "enough", I think the OP is FINE with his setup (utilizing the heavier arrow). I just don't see a heavier arrow (within reason, which has been displayed within the parameters of the OP's question) being a DISadvantage. And, in fact, my results with heavier arrows have proven to be an ADvantage. A properly tuned bow/arrow marriage is a beautiful thing. My current setup is better than my lighter/faster setup. We disagree. That's OK.
I guess I support both theories. I like to throw a "heavy" arrow as fast as I can possibly throw it. My "heavy" arrow isn't as heavy as most though, 435 grains.
Because there are merits to shooting a lighter arrow faster in some cases. The original poster is shooting in the 250 range and wanted a little more speed if there was no drawback. Everyone says go heavier without implying that he can attain his goal and have plenty of KE to get the job done. Another poster tried to take the same line and was shut down by the masses so I wanted to ensure both sides of the arrow weight were debated. My point is to let the OP know that he can take deer with his desired setup. Everyone else wanted to crush his dreams with a cumbersome heavy arrow
No doubt just about anything over 230fps with 400gr arrow is overkill for deer hit in the rib area. I think many old timers like myself are alarmed at the quest for speed without even understanding or trying to see the merits of wieght. If you notice, you will see many of the long time bowhunters shooting 450-500gr. Most of us all went down the speed road.
I did not mean for things to get so heated up,but i am glad i heard both sides of the story. My question was could i go lighter and still have what it takes to take down a deer. After reading all the post i am confident that i can go to a lighter arrow (367) and still get enough KE to get the job done. The difference between a 393 grain and 367 is not that much according to the links that you guys gave me to check. I agree that heavier is better with much slower shooting bows (based on everything you guys have given me to read), but with today's fast bows you can shot much lighter arrows and still achieve the same KE. An arrow that weighs 367 grains at 280fps will have 63# of KE and an arrow that weighs 590 grains at 220fps will have the same 63# of KE. Why not shot faster and flatter if you can. Again thanks for all of your help.
What distances are you planning on shooting? Known yardages? And the transverse of this would be "why"? You'll have more momentum with the heavier arrow. And, at known distances....the advantage of speed is nil. Do you have enough ass to take down deer? Sure (regardless of setup you choose). If you want to say your arrow is faster......then there's a way to do that. There's also a trade-off. Heavier is not just better with slower bows. I'm not sure where that's coming from. The folks who shoot what you would consider a heavy arrow, don't do so because their bows are slow. They do so because they realize the benefits of their choice. At "normal" bowhunting (treestand) ranges, IMO...the benefit of shooting a faster bow....is in its' ability to launch a heavier arrow at a greater speed than a lower poundage bow.
Because physics cannot be ignored. Harder you hit an object, the harder it hits back with the square of velocity. Thats the reason I see compounds shooting 320fps fail to sometimes penetrate the shoulder of a deer but I have with my 58lb zipper shooting a 650gr arrow at 172fps. Do a test, shoot a 50cal BMG into a body of water and find out the penetration compared to a 1oz slug going at 1000fps. The 1oz slug will beat it if simular BC's are compared. Or the classic challenge we have all probably done challenging a 357 shooter to penetrate a 5 gallon bucket full of water vs. a compound. The compound can and usually will penetrate the 5 gallons of water. The 357 most likely will not. This is the heartburn and sadness of this subject. Most young folks don't take the time to know or learn this.
Agree Jeff. If I still shot a compound you can bet I'd be shooting a 500 to 600 grain arrow If not just as heavy as I'm shooting now. What a wallop that would be. To bad Russ Isn't on here. He could tell story's of penetration test's he's proven to others. Russ also told me the arrow drop Isn't as bad as most make It out to be. To the poster of the thread your set up will do fine. Tweaking a set up though can have many benefits to It. Why not have speed and momentum? It's because speed Is shoved down everyone's throats. You can't really blame the new comers Mark and I don't mean that In a bad way.
I have spine shot two bucks in my years of hunting with the following setups. 70# bow shooting 458gr. arrow at 257fps (2 1/2 year old) 67#KE 84# bow shooting 403gr. arrow at 309fps (4 1/2-5 1/2 year old) 85#KE Both were around 20 yard shots from 20-24 foot off the ground. Both were using a 100gr. NAP Crossfire Broadhead. Both deer jumped the string and the shots hit the middle of the spine. The heavier arrow stuck in the spine and the deer went down, requiring a second shot. The lighter arrow blew through the spine of an older deer weighing nearly 100# more than the other with the broadhead bending from the impact. This deer also required a second shot. The lighter arrow has 18# more KE but in theory according to the link Bruce posted should have slowed down much faster because it was moving faster and was lighter. After all, KE means nothing according to some views posted in this thread. Had I stayed with the 70# bow and added 100gr to my arrows and lost 28-30fps would I have blown through the spine? If I had I would be shooting 65#KE moving 30fps slower which would have little or no advantage at all. Shooting the lighter arrow with more KE blew the old setup out of the water. Will I ever go heavier in my arrows? Possibly, the chump at Cabela's should have set me up with a heavier arrow but miscalculated the arrow chart which I realized later on. Do I have enough KE to blow through a shoulder with a 403gr. arrow, damn straight. Should I turn the bow down to 70# and shoot a 600gr. arrow, hell no. Having a 650gr. arrow @172fps will net 43#KE Having a 367gr, arrow @257fps will net 54#KE I would rather have that new Maxxis in my hand with the extra 11#KE from my experience. That initial bone cracking penetration has just as good a chance if not better at shooting through if I am shooting straight with a well tuned arrow from my experience. The most valuable lesson learned after the second shot was that I was a moron for shooting a deer that was alert and creeping into my shot zone a second time. Had I taken the right shot I could have killed either with 30#KE.
Brush up on your reading Quote: Originally Posted by Kennethp7 When i use the KE charts found online and change my arrow weight the KE doesn't change that much. For example if i shot a 267 grain arrow at 252fps the KE is 51.72 if i shot a 347 grain arrow at 259fps the KE is 51.7. That doesn't seem like that big of a difference to me. Again i am new so maybe the calculations are wrong, but i checked on three different websites. My question is, if these calculations are right why not shot the faster arrow if i am not going to lose even one pound of KE energy? To an extent KE doesn't mean much to you. The easiest way I can describe it, which is far fetched, is this. What would hurt worse getting hit by? a baseball at 90mph or a 10# bowling ball at 40mph? __________________ '10 PSE BowMadness MC 70#@27" DMI Expert-II Rest Montana BlackGold Flashpoint Custom Frankenstein Stab. Easton ST Epic's 125 Gr Snuffer SS
Ok, after leaving and reading what what said since, I have to chime back in. How can you compare a 70# bow to an 84# bow? thats comparing an apple to a pot roast. Were talking about one set-up, not two. Obviously speed will play a factor, ecspecially when your talking a 50fps diff. Beings as you think KE is the ONLY factor to you why not up your arrow weight to 503 gr? You'll still shoot 284fps and make 90# of energy. In your thesis thats proof that a heavier arrow is better.
Perhaps the phrases "to an extent" and "doesn't mean much" have a postive and absolute meaning to you? Up here those are generalities. I NEVER once said that KE is uselss and needs to be completely tossed out the window. Yes KE is important, but basing your arrow solely on KE is not a good idea.
Going heavier for me would equate to more KE. I already have enough to kill a Tyrannosaurus Rex and can shoot a flatter trajectory. I compared the two bows because one is shooting a lighter arrow. The lighter arrow going faster has superior penetration. The OP will not gain KE by going heavier and will at best get 10-15% better penetration if that while not shooting as flat. Neither is wrong for him or me, we will both kill a deer.
Doesn't mean much would equate to something you shouldn't worry about. My experiences have shown me that more KE with a lighter arrow is superior. The OP would have the same KE or within 1# going heavier or lighter.
Whoa!!! Missed this earlier? Not gonna read back through, but did anyone seriously pick the bowling ball over the heater? RWK, just out of curiousity, what bow were you shooting the 84#s out of to only get 309 fps with the 403 grain arrow?
Yes, he will gain KE by going heavier. He may lose speed but he will definitely gain KE. The real benefit is not in the KE though, it is in the gain in momentum. The gain in momentum increases the penetration potential of the arrow and that is what it is all about, penetration potential. I do not disagree that the decrease in weight for the OP really won't have much effect on KE, momentum or speed, it probably won't. But I would suggest that when you start increasing the arrow speed you start decreasing the efficiency and forgivness of your setup. With the lighter arrow you get less efficient energy transfer from bow to arrow which makes for a noisier setup and more vibration in the bow. You also get less forgivness of form errors and less forgiveness with environmental factors, wind specifically which lead to less accurate shots under less than ideal conditions.
