Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Discussion in 'Bowhunting Talk' started by frenchbritt123, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    In my opinion 3D discussions don't even belong in with hunting discussions when it comes to bow hunting. They are two separate animals IMO, tfox proves a hunting rig can do well at 3d (not the best usually) but 3D set ups have no place in the hunting world in my opinion.
     
  2. PSEREVENGEMAN

    PSEREVENGEMAN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    This thread discussion is speed vs. momentum. Tfox admitted his score was from an ibo/asa course all targets less then 45 yards with a moveable sight. That's a hunting setup?
    Again, shooting whitetails @ 4-25 yards with 500 plus grain arrows@235 fps is just fine. The true test of speed vs. momentum starts beyond 40 yards. A 3d tourney with 1/3 of targets from 40-90 yards is the best test beyond actual carcass examination.
    Bring that heavy slow high momentum setup on a western hunt and bring lots of recipes for tag soup. Bring it to a legit 3d tourney and it will get smoked by legit hunting setups @300 fps. If speed was not a huge advantage at 3d tourneys why is a speed limit set @ 308 max? All of my 3d buddies use their exact hunting setups. We live in So.Cal and primarily hunt western states. A heavy slow 235fps setup is a .3030, a 300 fps hunting setup is a .270. Momentum is meaningless if You miss @52 yards because that piece of rebar is dropping like a rock and you misjudged the distance by 5 yards.
    The other factor is string jump. I have over 50 bow kills on tape. Every deer string jumps in slow mo. The difference between 235 fps vs. 300 fps is significant regarding string jump.
     
  3. BOWDADDY64

    BOWDADDY64 Weekend Warrior

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    This
    Speed matters very little if you get your bow out of the closet the day before the season and head to the stand! Shot placement and shooter inadequacy wound more deer than ANY speed of arrow.
     
  4. frenchbritt123

    frenchbritt123 Grizzled Veteran

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    "Remember, sound is traveling 1,085 fps, so even your super-fast 300 fps arrows are not going to beat a deer’s ears at longer distances." In my opinion, the 40 to 90 yard shots should never happen in any sitauation. There are too many things that can go wrong at that distance. Shooting 40 to 90 yards at a live animal is lack of respect for the game, in my opinion. There are other tactics that are used out "west" besides hail marys.
     
  5. smctitan

    smctitan Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Is rather have a slower moving arrow that kills than a fast one that misses.


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  6. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    The fact is even at 300 fps, your arrow is dropping like a rock at 50. Not saying it doesn't have an advantage, its just exaggerated.

    My arrow is traveling 230 fps, not 235:D

    Like I said, im not shooting game past 50 without ranging it first,(actually less than that) regardless of speed. That's because I understand trajectory and have tested about all scenarios.

    I have no issues using my single pin past 30 yards with it set on 23 yards. Very easy and manageable hold over. Even at 300 fps you need hold over.


    I understand hunting distances out west are longer but 90 is not the norm. But shooting whitetail in wooded areas at distances past 50 really isn't advisable.

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  7. PSEREVENGEMAN

    PSEREVENGEMAN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Ask any outfitter the average elk, antelope, mulie bow shot is 45-50 yards. I have shot all from 4-40 yards but that's rare. Distance ethics depends on the shooter. If some guys have a standing animal lasered at 83 yards or 447 yards with a rifle it's dead, other guys maybe 30/200. All depends on the shooters competancey and confidence.
     
  8. frenchbritt123

    frenchbritt123 Grizzled Veteran

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    I really have no need to communicate with an outfitter, but I understand your point. The elk has much more of a kill zone, so I will over look that. There are plenty of antelope and mulies shot under 40 yards every year at watering holes and by spot and stalk methods. You mention ask an outfitter? This is an individual that gets paid to get someone a shot at an animal and usually only has one week to do it. I would say a longer shot is persuaded by money. I have nothing against outfitters, I just don't hunt that way. I know I could drive to work 150 mph on the interstate and on most days get there just fine. I drive 65 to 75 mph because I have more control and a lot less to worry about. It might take a little longer, but I am ok with that.
     
  9. NEW61375

    NEW61375 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    From the article:

    "Lethal shots without wounding deer are every ethical hunter’s top priority, and shot placement and an understanding of anatomy are paramount."

    This quote could have been the entire article. It's pretty absurd to claim any bow or style of bow/arrows is more likely to wound an animal. Pick whatever kind of set-up you prefer. Whether it's speed, heavy, or a happy medium in between and practice. Having a tuned bow with sharp broadheads, knowing your range limitations as well as game anatomy, and doing our part to take the best shots presented(or passing on shots) has 1000x times more to do with wounding less game than 100 grains or 100 fps.

    Every deer I've ever wounded was my fault...not my bows or my arrows. Speed sells and to a lot of folks(myself included) that's a little annoying because in the big scheme of things the only measurable difference between shooting a well tuned arrow 250 fps and 300 fps might be how many inches that arrow buries itself in the ground AFTER it blows through the game you are shooting at.
     
  10. indynotch50

    indynotch50 Grizzled Veteran

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    To my knowledge, no legitimate test by a credible source has ever been done. Sure I can shoot heavy and light arrows in my backyard and see how my target reacts, but this is not a good test whatsoever. It is not replicable.

    Therefore, one must deduct the outcome by a few methods:
    1. Real life examples: A light arrow will blow through a deer at 40 when shot properly. A heavy arrow will blow through a deer at 40 yards when shot properly. Therefore, this example is inconclusive.
    2. Theoretical: Momentum is simply mass x velocity. The faster and heavier it is moving, the harder it is to stop it (refer to example in previous post). This is important as a deer will act as friction against the movement. Kinetic energy is 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. So this relationship states that the faster an arrow goes, the higher the kinetic energy.
    However, neither momentum nor kinetic energy alone can solely judge an arrows ability to pass through an animal. I will have to go back and look it up more when I get home but I think you should look more towards collision theories. Essentially, the arrow is colliding with another object, just so happens in this case it's a deer.

    Kinetic energy, speed, momentum... are just a lot of buzz words to get people talking and discussing. I think that is a great part of the sport. However, like I said, I have yet to see a true test performed that would say one is better than the other, and I also think that is because the reason I said above, it takes both to get the job done.
     
  11. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    I need to add that ke goes up with speed but so does momentum. However, a light arrow is less efficient when shot out of a bow, therefore, ke drops, as does momentum.

    I personally don't care what anyone shoots, I've shot them all and under normal hunting distances (50 yards or less) any arrow designed for hunting will kill any north american game out there.

    I typically don't shoot a 500 gr arrow. Usually sub 400 gr. I put very little stock into the overhyped "flat trajectory" when dealing with ARCHery as it relates to hunting.

    I just enjoy the sport and try many different types of things to get the job done.


    Fast bows have not led to more wounding of animals. More hunters in the field with limited knowledge of their equipment probably has.

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  12. PSEREVENGEMAN

    PSEREVENGEMAN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    I mentioned outfitter as they witness more archery shots in one season then the average guy will see in a lifetime.
     
  13. P.Smash

    P.Smash Weekend Warrior

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    I shoot a 330 gr arrow @ 300 fps and I've kilt a pile of critters. No problem at all. Got more pass throughs than a leopard has spots :tu:
     
  14. LittleChief

    LittleChief Administrator

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    I'm a little toward the other end of the spectrum. For years I shot a 530 grain arrow @ 258 fps and I've "kilt" quite a few with that setup myself. I only had one shot that wasn't a complete pass-through and that was a spine shot. :tu:
     
  15. tynimiller

    tynimiller Legendary Woodsman

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    This thread is not getting worked up over for sure, so let's not fellas.

    I think of it this way:

    If I shoot a light set up really fast I'm gonna practice and be confident and ready to shoot animals at distance "x" (a distance not beyond what I consider to be an ethical shot choice).

    If I am going to shoot a heavy set up slower, I'm gonna practice and be confident and ready to shoot animals at distance "x" (a distance not beyond what I consider to be an ethical shot choice)

    The difference for me is where I care more about an arrow that is gonna pack more of punch, hence the belief and faithfulness to a heavier set up, because science is behind it, as it will hit harder (not going to say kill better because that is a touch harder to prove if not impossible). Like I said though I know I'll take the proper steps to be ready and confident no matter what set up...which is why I will never add speed to allow me more leeway for farther shots but instead will go slower if I feel it will provide a harder hitting set up which in my opinion is more lethal.

    If you happen to be more of a speed guy so be it, to each their own but I myself from experiences and observations will never be sold on speed alone.
     
  16. PSEREVENGEMAN

    PSEREVENGEMAN Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Always an interesting discussion. Here's a sisiter sites take."
    "What about momentum?” you ask. Momentum, like KE, is another way to measure the ‘power’ in an object that’s moving. Some have suggested that momentum is an important factor when you’re comparing the potential penetration of a heavy and slow arrow vs. a light and fast arrow. For example, a 375 grain arrow traveling at 280 fps has about the same KE as a 600 grain arrow moving at 220 fps. The latter, though, has more momentum and theoretically should provide superior penetration.

    The reality, though, is something else all together. The formula for momentum is very similar to the one for KE, and the difference between the two measurements doesn’t seem to translate to the real world. Lighter weight arrows with comparatively low momentum can penetrate quite well. There are likely other variables which influence penetration far more than the minor difference between KE and momentum."

    Same KE-fact. Lighter setup is flatter shooting-fact. Does it matter for the average whitetail shot-Nope. The effect of momentum cannot be proven via math.
     
  17. maxpetros

    maxpetros Grizzled Veteran

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    this. lot of good arguments made. i am just going to work as hard as i can to put a sharp broad head where it needs to be and that animal is dead. period.
     
  18. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    There are more factors at play. No one is arguing that. Sharp, well designed broadhead is probably the biggest. Well tuned is another. Foc plays a role as well, as does arrow wall thickness.

    Ke changes sightly going with heavy arrows. Momentum changes quite a bit .

    Faster arrow really doesn't shoot enough flatter to make a real world difference.


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  19. SharpEyeSam

    SharpEyeSam Legendary Woodsman

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    Very Well Stated!
     
  20. tfox

    tfox Grizzled Veteran

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    Just did a little playing around at 50 yards with my 230 fps (498 grain) arrow and a 292 (295 grain) fps arrow from my bow.

    I "0" both for 50 and then walked back to 55 and shot with the same "0" I did have to shoot the fast arrow with my 30 yard "pin" but that is irrelevant. Miss difference is all we are concerned with.

    This is why I say range anytime you shoot long distance.

    Red is fast arrow and yellow is slow. I was not on my game as well today because it was hot, humid and the wind was blowing but you get the idea.

    I wouldn't want euther of the shots I missed the yardage on and this was a difference of over 60 fps.


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