Are Crossbows Hurting Deer Numbers?

I must admit that haven't read every post in this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating anyone else's previously stated thoughts, but the obvious should be stated..
I see some of you being proponents, or at the very least, neutral on the subject. Then it it hit me; So very many of you are essentially unaffected. So let me be clear about my own stance: If you're not primarily (or, as are many of us, exclusively) hunting public land, then you honestly do not have a dog in this fight.
I don't care if your neighbors hunt with them... I don't care if you're hunting small acreage. It just isn't the same as being out among the xbow wielding masses on public land. Our experiences.. or rather, your lack thereof, are not comparable.

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One of your main sponsors is selling crossbows with commercials shooting sub one inch groups at 100 yards, the name of the bow is SUB-1. Do you have any idea how many guys who don't have a clue come in the shop wanting a crossbow to shoot deer at 100 yards?

These are the same guys who have the tech sight it in at 20 and off they go with broadheads in hand.

So, yes, it takes more than 3 or 4 shots to learn the downrange flight of their projectile.

You are trying to rope me into being anti technology (I shoot a carbon riser bow for crying out loud). I am not against the evolution of the sport. I am anti slob hunters no matter the weapon they carry. I am only telling you what it is like in my area and the slobs heavily favor the crossbow here.

 

In NY I had to take a Bowhunter safety course before I could legally hunt with a compound. Perhaps this is what Ohio needs for those wanting to hunt with a compound/crossbow? It would create a barrier for the ultra lazy and educate other folks. Not every guy caring a compound into the woods is an angel. I get it some guys don’t have the cranial capacity to safely and ethically hunt deer regardless of the method.


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Now this I will agree with you 100% on. IMO I believe the marketing of crossbows shooting accurately at distances that are unreasonable for hunting is irresponsible. One of my main gripes against crossbows is the misinformation about what they are capable of doing and how they should be used, which leads to your point about "slob" hunters.

I don't doubt or question this one bit. However what are we doing to help combat this? Aside from crying about it online which isn't doing any of us any good. And believe me I'm just as guilty as the next guy. A few weeks ago I ran into a fella in the gas station after a hunt who was hunting the same public spot where I killed my buck this year. He's using a crossbow and flat out told me he'd shoot at a deer at 80 yards with it. I should have said something to him, but chose not to for fear of either starting an argument or coming off as some sort of elitist prick. So I just nodded, finished getting my coffee, wished him good luck and went on my way.

My guess is the same thing happens in local bow shops and box stores across the country. Guys come in wanting to shoot deer at 100 yards, which we all know isn't reasonable, but nobody tries to teach them that's not the right way. Perhaps there needs to be greater focus on education surrounding crossbows and it may help curb at least some of the improper use. Just a thought.

 

So what makes your hunt on public land more valuable or worthwhile than the guy with the crossbow? Essentially what I'm hearing is that because you're using a compound bow you shouldn't have to compete with the massive amount of people using crossbows. So you want the land to yourself - or at least limited to those who hunt the same way you do. So should the public land be limited to only compound hunters? Keep out the bird watchers, the dog walkers, the photographers, the hikers or anyone who wants to enjoy the public land that we're all fighting so hard to "keep public". But what we mean is keep public for the use we specifically want and screw everyone else.

 

Boom! And here we are finally on the same page. You now understand what I have been trying to articulate.

As for your last point. Josh and I frequently discuss the problems our state faces. Josh gets to speak to our Senator who over sees our committee in charge of introducing legislation and approving all of our hunting rules, bag limits etc etc and Josh relays to him the problems we face.

Trust me, we are trying.

They are starting to listen as our out of state license will increase by $100 for next year. Not sure the affect that will have on the 30,000 out of state tags we currently sell. Either the state will clear an additional $3,000,000 or we may get some relief on public land.

 

I mean... Stereotyping an entire population of hunter based on what you see at your local shop is extremely naive.

Better just throw all hunters who carry a gun into the woods into that group too based on what I see during rifle/slug season. Hell - I see idiots or "slobs" with traditional and compound bows at my local shop so might as well throw everyone in there. You really have no idea what the ratio is on who is a slob hunter or not. Just assumptions.

 

Read again, a number of times I stressed MY AREA and that I was not speaking for ANY OTHER AREA. I have no idea what is going on in Minnesota or anywhere other than my location, that is why I do not speak as if I do.

 

Ohio is a pretty big state.

Yes, I am playing devils advocate simply because there are slobs hitting the woods with all types of weapons.

 

I wasn’t calling out anyone in particular.




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I've met 2 compound hunters this year that shot bucks directly in the neck with Rage broadheads. ...bc they said "I knew that Rage would kill them". Slobs are everywhere. I hunt on federal public land and people still illegally bait. Still shoot deer they aren't supposed to, and do all kinds of dumb stuff. And there are even background checks run on people before they are issued licenses. And those people still do crazy things. Tells you a lot.

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What difference is it truly making if a person is using a crossbow vs a compound on PUBLIC land?

Stupid people do stupid things. There are stupid people in the woods with compound bows.

 

I have not seen NR fees going up by $100 in 2018, link??
Every thing I have read is:
NR hunting license will be $140.50 in 2018, and $157 in 2019, they are $125 now
Deer permit raising to $74 in 2020, they are $24 now.

Raising the fees will have next to zero impact on NR tag sales - it is still a bargain. I do not know where the tipping point is for having an impact, $200, $400, a $1K??

Ohio has a public access issue, we are losing ground yearly. AEP land is one example.

I see a lot of guys buying new guns on the Sunday before gun season & then going out on Monday - are they slob hunters? I have no idea, maybe they spend all day Sunday getting that new gun sighted in. Sure seems to be a lot of people sighting guns in on the weekend before gun season!!

A crossbow does not make one a slob hunter, it is the morals/ethics of the hunter that paint them as a slob hunter.

 

You catch on quick! Lol

But here's the thing, Justin.. As I said earlier, if you don't spend most (or all) of your hunting time on public land in heavily hunted "trophy states", then you cannot possibly understand the place I'm coming from.

To your first point, what makes my public land hunting more valuable/worthwhile than the typical xbow toter's, is that what I do inherently comes with a far greater degree of difficulty. This is a point that's not up for debate. Why? Because many states do not allow xbow hunting, with the exact exceptions stated in my ealier post (women, children, elderly, disabled, etc.). No further proof needed. Any argument here would be made by a fool who's either lying to himself -or to me, in a desparate effort to justify how he does things.

Now, let's talk about xbow use and the rut...
In Ohio, there is no gun hunting whatsoever prior to, or during the first 3 weeks of November. And the reason for this is to ensure that the quality of the herd is kept at a [hopefully] premium level. Right? I mean, why else would it be that way?... So, with today's hunting culture's renewed love affair with these instruments of death, it seems a ton more research & developent has been put forth to advance this technology into what it is today. I mean... I don't know about you, but by & large, these aren't exactly your granddad's xbows that I'm seeing in the woods these days. And for me, whether or not the shooter is competent, or an absolute slob, is neither here, nor there. The bottom line is that some of these things do have scopes mounted on them and can indeed shoot accurately (albeit in perfect conditions) out to 100 yards, correct? And on top of that, they do not need to be drawn during a deer's approach, or when the deer is actually present. In fact (though I've never hunted with one), I can imagine that in many scenarios, with a deer in your forward-facing 180° (minium) perimeter, that one wouldn't need to move much in their stand/blind/lounge chair at all, let alone stand up for the shot.... It would simply be a point & squeeze-the-trigger scenario. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
That said, it certainly seems that their use far more resembles that of gun hunting, than bow hunting. Am I right? Or am I crazy??

So why on God's green earth should they enjoy the same time frame as an actual bow hunter? Why should they be awarded that time with me and all of the serious bow hunters who possess the passion, the drive and the dedication to do things the hard way, when what they do bares a far greater resemblance to what gun hunters do?

Simply put -in my opinion- they dont. And as Scott posted earlier, their participation in the woods of Ohio is certainly taking a heavy toll. And the deer herd (yes, even in Ohio) has its limits. There are only so many deer... and there is only so much public land. And the xbow numbers (here) are way too high.

If the trad folks want to make the same complaint about me and my methods, so be it. But I'll bet they're A-okay with me and how I do things. And if they're not, let's give them an extended season... say, a first Saturday in September opener (rather than the last). And let's push the xbow crowd back to run concurrently with gun season, through the end of bow season.

See? I'm a man of compromise.



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Huh. I just always thought all Ohioans were slobs.


Go Blue!

 

Seriously though, in regards to the original question at hand; by the numbers it appears the impact of crossbows on overall kill numbers is negligible. The impact on the enjoyment level/quality of the "archery only" season is what we appear to be quibbling over here.

What it boils down to is that many of you guys just want less people in the public woods hunting "your" deer; at least until its Orange Army time. As I stated earlier it seems very likely that a great many crossbow hunters would just become gun hunters and/or go back to vertical bows if crossbows were more restricted- and kill numbers would stay roughly the same.

Look- I've hunted public land almost all my life, and still do even though I have access to some private. I've hunted public with rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, trad bows, crossbows, and compounds. A lot of things go into making a public land hunt successful. Competition with other hunters, Slobs or not are a part of that equation. So is luck. Which is what I wish to all hunters.

Final thought- I promise that a great many of these public land "crossgunners" put in similar or more time, miles, and effort into their pre-season prep as do guys who hunt farm country leases.

 

I can tell your not a crossgunner from PA then! lol

 

maybe we should! ive been contemplating going tad for a few years now. if compounds are 70-80% easier than trad then that makes a crossgun 140-160% easier than trad.

 

just curious hypothetical question for all compound and crossgunners. how many of you would continue archery hunting if crossguns and compounds became banned in archery season? would you pick up trad equipment and continue on?

I would and might possibly be doing some part time doe hunting with a trad bow next season. I like to keep the challenge alive. not all about meat or killing for me. I enjoy a challenge. I set small goals for myself and as I achieve them I find another goal to accomplish. next is a doe with a trad bow. i guess I'm not normal trying to make things harder for myself, but it sure is fun!

 

This is like saying because I'm not a minority that I can't possibly understand what it's like to be discriminated against, and therefore any thoughts I have surrounding the topic are null and void.

Far greater? Give me a break. Drawing a bow back in order to shoot a deer isn't all that difficult. People do it hundreds of thousands of times across the country each year. Hell, I was doing it when I was a teenager and had no idea what I was even doing and somehow managed to kill deer. You're acting like shooting a deer with a compound bow is some sort of monumental task that can only be achieved through decades of grueling training and experience.

More than 50% of US States allow crossbows during general archery season.

Yes, of course. Slapping a firearms season in the middle of the rut would increase harvest percentages and has the potential to disrupt breeding patterns and negatively affect the overall population.

The same can be said for our compounds. Most people wouldn't have dreamed of shooting deer at more than 20 yards when I started bowhunting. Now you're hard pressed to find someone who isn't shooting 40 and plenty shooting 50 and beyond.

This makes no sense to me at all.

I would say you're wrong. Just like shooting a gun you have about a 90 degree field in which to shoot on your near-hand side. So as a right-handed shooter when I shoulder a crossbow I can shoot directly in front of me or 90 degrees to my left. Just like with a vertical bow if I want to shoot to my right hand side I must stand up and turn around in my stand or blind.

And I'm not sure about you, but I've shot my fair share of deer with a compound bow while sitting down in either a blind or a stand. This isn't something that's exclusive to crossbows.

I wouldn't say you're crazy - just letting your emotions dictate your opinions.

Man that's rich.

So now we get back to the original issue at hand - are crossbows hurting deer populations and thus effecting hunting opportunities for everyone? IF the numbers show that yes they are, then I'm 100% in favor of additional regulations. However if herd numbers are steady and remain at acceptable levels per what biologists (not hunters) want to see, and opportunity and success percentages for all hunters are not being diminished, then nothing needs to be changed. Just because you don't like sharing public land with more hunters doesn't mean that those people should be denied the same opportunities that you have.

Rules and regulations surrounding hunting seasons aren't here to protect our feelings or provide us with opportunities to hunt public land without anyone else around. They are here to allow a certain number of animals to be killed each year in order to generate income for the State and maintain healthy wildlife populations. Just because we want to make hunting all about the experience, the journey, the challenge or whatever terms we want to slap on it doesn't make it the government's responsibility to provide those things for us.