this is the issue. Everyone wants folks to interpret the Word for them. All the tools are at everyone's grasp today so we can read, and interpret. Never take a preachers word on it. The greek translation, the Arimaic, the hebrew, its all at your grasp, all one has to do is give some effort if they want to understand. But I understand, I went thru the same thing going thru college. Espeically going thru Science degree.
Why do we have to interpret? Why not just say what he/she wants us to do? I guess I never thought about it before, but God HAS to be a woman.
You interpret everyday. Right now, your interpretting what I am saying. He has said what he wants you to do. Its not rocket science that you need a cleric or a priest, or a faith healing preacher to interpret for you. Its clear. But there is a vested interest in for money and institutions to be made for people to do the interpretting for you. See, your thinking your doing God a favor by believing in Him. And he should do something for you. I understand totally where you are coming from. Extremely natural, been there, done it. But one day it occured to me, I am the one that is getting the good end of this deal. God gave us the Word. All we have to do is read it. I myself think I am well qualified to read and try to understand. Thats me.
I'm no longer a believer. As Vito and Hooker, I was raised Catholic and attended bible study and church weekly. I don't think I could have survived a Catholic school lol. I continued with this all the way up until my confirmation, mostly just to make my parents happy. I have seen too many things first hand that has developed a lot of doubt in God. I am also a Biology major, and I believe that evolution is a very legitimate study. I know it doesn't answer EVERY aspect of the development of organisms, but it makes A LOT more sense to me than religion. I do however like the morals and values that I have learned from attending church, but you can have those same values instilled in you by your parents.
I think "belief" & "faith" are hard to nail down. We tend to make their definitions static, and I don't think that either are. For me, also growing up Catholic, I would say I had faith, but it was shallow. My breakdown came when I saw a drastic difference what I read in the bible and saw in the church. After a few years of not attending church I was told by one of my best friends mom that I'd go to Hell if I didn't go to church. Ouch! I dearly love her to this day, but that simple statement turned me from God for 15 years! Over those years I was still interested "God" and would even occasionally try to read the bible, but I found it too contradiction and confusing. One of the only places I'd ever feel close to God or like he was real is when I was in the treestand. Looking back at those days nature was my connection. I didn't bowhunt back then, it was just the WI rifle season with my brother, dad, cousin & uncle. I always stand hunted, and the 9 days of the season turned to be the only time in my life that I was alone and quite. Every year, I'd take the opportunity in the stand to evaluate my life. I'd have conversations with myself about things I should be doing, things I probably shouldn't be doing, people I needed to visit or call, where I wanted to be by the next season. Looking back now, I'm not so sure I was by myself. So what changed? 100s of things... As I got older I realized that no one is 100% right. My teachers growing up, my parents, my friends, the President, my college professors... me... I also realized that there are more than two sides to an argument. That things are more connected than most realize. That people can try to be nice or do something right, and have the opposite effect. The media isn't just reporting facts. You can never learn everything about anything........ Then I met my wife. She came from a strong Christian family. When I met her folks they were not judgemental. They loved me for me. I started going to their church when I visited. The pastor there 'John' was friendly, funny, and he was going to marry us. I still wasn't comfortable entirely in Church, but it was making a little more sense. Then in our town (Duluth, MN at the time) Sara & I started to go "Church Shopping". We bounced around a bit but eventually settled at a Church we both liked. Things there were comfortable for us. It seemed like they were actually trying to live and grow like Jesus talked about. Like I said, it wasn't one big answer, it was 1000's of little ones. I enjoyed the music there, and started to participate as opposed to quietly waiting for it to stop. I began to enjoy the sermons, at some point most Sundays, it seemed like the pastor was talking directly to me about issues in my life that no one new of, but he wasn't condescending or judgemental. Others in the church were active and joyfully helping each other and the entire community. The Church had the largest food-shelf in the area, held free medical clinics, and taught about everything in the bible (since it teaches about everything). They prayed for each other, and talked about (and I saw) spiritual gifts. But it was done so in a very comfortable way. It's hard to describe the church other than it just seemed real & healthy. My desire to know more and be part of it grew. It wasn't perfect. But I now understand that it wasn't going to be, but that didn't keep them from trying to be. My faith, my beliefs? Still shallow, but deeper for sure. My character? Weak, and susceptible to sin. But stronger and growing most days. My love and acceptance of others? Small & hypocritical. But changing, and I believe for the better. I know that I don't have all the answers. Or many. Or any really. I could be completely wrong. But from what I've seen, I can tell you that I love my wife more, love & respect complete strangers more, am more environmentally conscious, and am trying to do more to help those around me both near and far. I can believe with my whole heart that you are wrong, and still like you (I'd make a specific list, but I'll save time and say you're all wrong... me too ) I don't think I was a bad person before. I think I was pretty good in fact. But I'm growing more now because of my faith. And its in ways that I believe wouldn't and couldn't have happened with out Jesus. I can't force you to change your beliefs. I can't prove much of anything to you. All I can do is try my best to relay what it is that believe. The best way to do this is not by telling you either, but in the actions and decisions I make every day. FYI this paragraph is intended for Christians just as much as anyone else. So like my first post, my answer to the OP is yes. But in order to get the real answer, I guess you'll have to come to Ely and live with me..... Sorry, I guess this is my long answer :D
Actually no, I don't believe he should be doing anything for me. I have never thought that. Nor have I ever thought I was doing him a favor. The bible isn't exactly modern english. Its kind of like Shakespeare. Some things need interpreting. It would help if there was some sort of authority. You would think that would be the head of your church. No? People interpret different parts of the bible differently, and everyone thinks they are right. That is part of the turn off. It has even happened on here quite frequently, lately.
Outside of molesting boys, I agree with most of this. I have values instilled in me as a result of my catholic upbringing. Sure, I could have learned them elsewhere, but I didn't. I learned them through my parents and my church. My parents learned them through their parents and church. I'm not blind to that, but I do believe I can pass on those same values to my children without the assistance of religion, church, or god.
Suuuuuuure, put all the blame on me. Remember, God knocked out your power, not mine. He must like me. I am pretty likeable.
Absolutely believe. Those that dont or are on the fence may want to read the book ; Walking The Bible, by Bruce Feiler. He actually started out visiting locations mentioned in the bible to try and prove it to be fiction. He did not believe. After his long journey, he became a believer. Very interesting read. I hope at least one individual here will read the book with an open mind and give religion a chance to change their life.
There are plenty of translations that are in plain english. So many people think that King James is all that's out there. Pick up and NIV (New International Version). In the newest edition (2011), they have a breakdown of the approach to translating that was taken in the Preface. But even in "plain English" it needs interpreting. Like anyhting. Scientific resaults need interpreting, deer sign needs interpreting, the nightly news needs interpreting. I think that can be the power of the church (and its weakness), you have a group of people that bring their interpretation. When will people realize that we don't all have to be in 100% agreement all the time?
Fitz, I always enjoy your input on this topic. Very level-headed. My guess...never. People have to put themselves above others somehow. This seems to be the most time tested way.
And these 3 scriptures alone will get you to heaven? Come on Jeff, that is not the whole plan. Always remember, we have to rightly divide the Word if we would see the big picture. By the way, the scriptures above are merely stating that we must have faith. Nothing more, nothing less. Obedience to God is much deeper than that, wouldn't you say?
Herein lies a great deal of the world's issues... Everyone will simply not get into "One mind and one accord" with each other.
Of course, everyone believes that they are right. You don't like Muslims telling you that their way is the right way, just like they don't like you telling them that your way is the right way. It's the same with the other hundreds of religions throughout the world. Hell, even Christians can't agree on anything, thus the many different denominations and constant bickering. It turns people away from religion.
Exactly, I myself study NIV, NKJ, KJ, and NASB. NASB is probably the best translation to date with all the material available. Its a word to word translation and was translated with the most material gathered thru Asia. Some words of course cannot be translated directly. NIV is a sentence to sentence translation. I like it the best. KJ is probably the worst. They were forced to translate some of the Latin Vulgate which is of course controlled by the Catholic church. Material available from the early church was at a min in 1600. But I have yet to see any doctrinal differences between any of these. I would stay away from the NLT. Mostly paraphrase.
