Fitz, You are 100% right. I am neither fleunt in Mt. lion nor Wolf. It would be fun to ask the question...presently, tough to comfirm one way or another. My statement was simply based on what I know about wildlife behavior here in the west-Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana particularly. Mt lions do not go about killing everything in their sight (if that were the case, our cervid/sheep populations would be nonexistent). Generally speaking, they kill one deer/elk/bighorn, etc. and stay with the carcass until it is either fully consummed, stolen, or completely rancid. The process takes 3-7 days. Wolves, on the other hand, kill and move on(I'm sure you can google Wolves in Yellowstone to gather all the data you may need). Many times they do not even eat that which they have killed. Christine, I'm with you...that's pure stupidity there! Those are the kind of guys which will eventually hurt hunting.
Your analogy of the wolf Is no different here In Mn as It's where your from. They waste lots of meat and just kill cause they enjoy It I believe. It's real easy In determining a wolf kill compared to something else. Good points Will, It translated pretty good I thought.
I only posed the question because I think that its funny how many hunters view the wolf. "They kill for fun" "They are cruel and wasteful" "They cause more damage than they are worth" The irony is that this is the same crap that we get dealt from the anti hunters and we do the same thing to the wolf? Yes, the wolf and cougar are very different hunters, but they lead very different lives. One tends to be solitary, the other tends to live in packs. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Wolves will often (especially in the winter months)kill and animal and eat only part of it, most likely the hind quarter and the entrails. That's where you find the highest concentration of meat and nutrition. They will then move on to the next hunt. This is a survival mechanism allowing them to get through the toughest time of year. They will most-likely return to the carcass at a later date when the hunting has slowed. In the mean time, numerous other animals scavenge on what is left, and are allowed to survive throughout the winter as well. Nothing goes to waste in nature. Wolves also scavenge for carrion, whether on the side of the road, or in front of my trail camera:d . Anyways, sorry for the :hijack: , if any of you would like to further the wolf debate, we can start another thread. I just don't buy into the idea that the wolf (or any other animal, with the sole exception of humans) kills just for fun. Even as I'm writing this, I'm realizing that I, in true hypocritical fashion, was angry at beavers this summer for "senselessly" felling numerous large trees on our property. "They weren't using them, it was just a waste." Looks like I was just mad because I didn't see the reason why they where destroying my pretty trees. Damn, schooled by a beaver...
Sure the wolves have their place, the only thing that gets me is that they have a PROTECTED place in nature. They are far from endangered now, and are WREAKING HAVOC on elk/moose numbers out there in the west, WY and ID especially. They should be managed just as other game species, with a limited harvest to keep numbers in check. Alot of people out there are fed up with the wolf protection fiasco, and are starting to live by the SSS method when it comes to wolves, shot shovel and shut up. The federal government has no place keeping states from managing their own wolf population. Hijack Rant over.
If we didn't enjoy killing whatever animal we're after, would we not take a plastic bow with rubber suction cups instead? How can we say we enjoy hunting, but don't enjoy killing?? That, in and of itself, just isn't possible. If you truly do not enjoy killing the animal you are after, you do not enjoy hunting. You simply cannot. BUT, let's not confuse "enjoy" with respect. Let's not confuse excitement with reverence. When we shoot an animal, we don't know immediately if we are going to recover that animal or not. I don't know about ya'll, but I get excited BEFORE I even draw the bow. When I see that fletching bury into it's chest, it's all I can do to remain on my feet. If you've been keeping up with our Oklahoma party, ya'll know I shot a hog and didn't recover it. The adrenaline kicked in immediately when I saw them approaching, and they weren't even in bow range. After I let the arra fly, I was shaking like a leaf. The fact that I didn't recover it had no bearing what so ever on my emotion after the shot. Was I disappointed I didn't recover it? Absolutely. I figure if we're gonna kill 'em, let's at least do it quickly and feed the family with them. That's simply respect for the animal. People say we are adrenaline junkies, that we thrive on it, that we NEED to kill to feel that. I say nay nay. I DO NOT kill for the adrenaline. If I did, that would mean I could control my bodies generation of adrenaline, which we certainly cannot. The killing of an animal, as was mentioned already, is the culmination of many things. For me, there is a tremendous amount of pride in it. Let's face it, putting an arrow into a deer just isn't easy. I also have tremendous respect for that animal. But ya know what? That's why they are on this planet. God tells us to kill and eat. Animals have no emotion, no feeling, no soul. We do. Do I feel badly for killing that deer? Aw hail no! Do I enjoy killing that deer? You betcha! Do I feel bad for enjoying it? Nope. Let's face it, we do not hunt out of necessity. It's not like the old days when folks hunted for survival. We hunt because we enjoy it. Let's just call it what it is.
Stuff your perfectly logical explanation in a sack and take it elsewhere....we enjoy argueing in this thread!:computer: :d
Who can honestly say they look forward to busting a spring gobbler-honestly? If given the opportunity, I know I will enjoy killing one! Where I hunt, they are thickly populated and considered pests. I do not need to kill one (in the gaint scheme of things), but I will definitely enjoy killing one. And Fitz, the difference between humans and wolves...we know when to stop. I doubt I'll wipe out the whole flock. Anyone, anyone?
You? No. Humans in general? We don't need to look that far back into history to see how bad we are at managing our desires. Taken as a whole, we are the best and worst species on the planet.
You don't have to look back in history to see how bad we are at managing desires..... just go to Vegas.
I believe anyone who enjoys killing something is sadistic. Before anyone gets all wound up allow me to explain. Really think about it. Do you really enjoy killing things? Does it bring you joy to watch it die? What about up close and personal? Would you enjoy choking the life out of a dog while looking in it’s eyes and watching the life leave it’s body? Would you jump up and down and do a fist pump? You would have to be sadistic to enjoy that. I believe the people who say they enjoy killing animals really don’t. They in fact enjoy something else. I believe they enjoy the success of the hunt. They set out to accomplish a goal and they were successful. Think back to your high school graduation. What did you do? Throw your cap, let out a yell, jump around, hug your friends? (sound farmiliar?) It was the joy of an accomplishment. Why do we choose to hunt with a weapon or method that makes killing an animal more difficult? The answer is simple. The harder the task, the greater the sense of accomplishment. If we truly enjoyed the killing we would choose the weapon and method that would bring the fastest ,most efficient kill. Or worse yet, shoot them in a way that would result in a slow painful death. To further my point, what about all those other emotions that accompany a successful hunt? Respect, admiration, remorse, sadness, etc. These are the emotions involved with the taking of a life. I believe this is one of the huge draws to hunting. It’s one of the few times when all your emotions peak at the same time. To answer the question that started this post. I feel the same way as everyone else. Each person expresses it in their own ways.
Does it matter or not if you enjoy the kill? You are still taking that animals life? What is the point of sitting on a message board debating it. Fact is, we have all and will continue to take these animals lives, no matter what our stance on the "kill" part is. Seriously, is everybody soooo bored that they have to try to pick apart and analyize every aspect of hunting just to make it through the offseason.... go schedule a yoga appointment and check back in during the summer when scouting starts.
When I read logic like that, its hard to argue. Why bring up unrelated totally useless side points, such as purposely wounding animals or choking dogs? WTF? lol Do you ask a boxer claiming he likes throwing a KO haymaker, if he would enjoy punching a little girl in the face? Do we ask a lumberjack who loves sawing down trees why he doesnt go to the whitehouse front lawn for some trees if he likes it so much? Should a person who enjoys tackling someone in football also enjoy tackling a grandma? NO, you can like doing something within limitations...all about a balance fellas. You know you are running out of good points in a debate if you bring in killing of other animals, whether it be smashing turtles, choking dogs, you name it...none have absolutely ANYTHING to do with hunting or the kill involved with hunting. I ENJOY every aspect of a successful hunt, INCLUDING watchin the animal go down in sight...that means success, in ALL accounts when it comes to hunting. If I have to go up close and personal to finish it off, OF COURSE I wouldnt enjoy it, because I failed in the first place...I made a bad shot, resulting in unneeded suffering for that animal. I would do it, and get it over with. Enjoying a kill along with all the other parts of hunting doesn't make one sadistic. Getting emotional or thrilled after releasing an arrow doesnt make one sadistic. Smashing turtles, choking dogs, or experiencing no emotion whatsoever taking a life tips the scales more toward sadistic than anything. I enjoy the kill of a hunt, must make me one sick little puppy.:evil: I burned ants one day with a magnifying glass as a little 4 year old boy, probably what started me down this messy road of evil.
Magic, Do you watch hunting shows on television? If so, would you continue to watch them if they edited out all the kill shots? Just asking... and please do elaborate on your opinion. Would the programming keep you glued to your seat? I asked myself that question tonight. My answer was no, in general. On the other hand, my answer would be yes if the kill shots involve scenes like the one Christine has givening us. I really think it's the "without feeling/nonrespect" that gets to me.
I wouldn't watch if they edited out the kill scenes. I don't really know what you are refering to concerning Christine so I can't respond. The point I was trying to make earlier is that I don't believe that killing something brings joy and excitement to most hunters. I believe it's the acomplishment of achieving a goal. I thought a lot about this post and asked myself "do I enjoy killing things?" My answer came back "NO". Even killing the mice that find their way into my house. I kill some things because it has to be done. Like the mouse in my house. I asked myself if I don't like killing things why do I shoot deer? I think it's a preditory nature of man. Think about it. Most hunters will rescue a deer caught in a fence or one that fell thru the ice. If they like to kill , why not bash it over the head with a tire iron? Why swerve for that rabbit in the road? Don't get me wrong, I don't sit and cry for a deer I just shot. I get fired up like everyone else. Ask Schultzy how pumped I was when I got my buck this year. I get excited because I outsmarted a worthy opponent, not because I killed something.If anyone can't follow my thought process I'm cool with that. I have killed animals in the past just to kill them and aferwards I felt crappy about doing it.(we went snowshoe rabbit hunting and didn't keep the meat) I hope this explains things better Will.
It does amigo, and I agree with you 98%. Yours is that sad and happy simultaneously thing that Jim and I spoke of earlier(comforting to know). Humans run the gamut of emotions (a good thing IMO)-compassion being one for sure. There is one thing about your comment, though, which trips me up. Can you not outsmart a worthy opponent without killing it? The American Indains did this when they counted coup (a touch). There's a trigger in there somewhere which causes us to take beyond just counting coup. Is it a "need" to "sustain"...I'm not sure? Maybe this is the "business" part that has eluded me. Are we really "without" though? BM, I personally liked this thread. It made me think about the past, the present, and the future. In that regard, it does matter. It has given me the opportunity to grow..."I think, therefore I am". I would rather not shut down. Why do you keep coming back if it doesn't matter?
I like your post Todd and I 100% agree that It's the accomplishment that everyone gets excited about. Your excitement was awesome when I talked with you on the phone after you got your buck. If you ever lost that excitement I can guarantee that you would never hunt again. That's why we hunt because of the excitement of the accomplishment and some of us are just plain and simple outdoor people that do this type of stuff.
