345 fps is slow?

Discussion in 'Bowhunting Talk' started by Vabowman, Nov 23, 2015.

  1. TeamFATBOY

    TeamFATBOY Newb

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    WOW! My heads spinning. LOL! Since when did a change of brace height change a persons draw length? My old now back up bow has a 7.25 brace height and the bow I'm shooting now has a 6" brace height (32"ata+/-) and I have a 29" draw length and shoot the same 28" arrows with both bows. A bow with a short brace height also has a longer power stroke than a bow with a longer brace height where the arrow is on the string longer thus adding to the speed of the arrow. Also longer brace height bows tend to want to torque less which makes the longer brace height bows more forgiving. Of course I'm no expert and this is just my opinion for what it's worth.
     
  2. davidingle

    davidingle Weekend Warrior

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    Im not saying it is going to change draw length.. I've shot a variety of bows all at 28". But what i'm saying is I am going to get more forgiveness from my 6" bh bow than someone shooting 30" draw length with a bow that has a 7" bh. My arrow isn't going to be on my string as long as someone with the longer draw length even though they have a longer bh. So my arrow will be on the string for 22" while the 30" draw would be on the string for 23"... more forgiveness with my setup... Not arguing anything, just thinking out loud.
     
  3. TeamFATBOY

    TeamFATBOY Newb

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    Gotcha and I'm also thinking out loud (scary)! LOL!
    I do know one thing for sure I learned a long time ago and that was to tune my bow to where my arrows flew true and hit where I aim, draw the bow, release the arrow, let the bow do it's job and try not to overthink everything. Haven't quite conquered that yet!
     
  4. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    well what about this. two guys, two Bowtech Destroyers. On 350= 6" brace and one 340 = 7" brace. same a2a same 28" DL, same poundage. same arrow, etc...which one would/should be more forgiving?
     
  5. TeamFATBOY

    TeamFATBOY Newb

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    Destroyer-Specs.jpg
    I would say the 340 because of the geometry of the bows. The limbs of the 340 have to be longer than the 350 to gain the extra brace height and the 1" extra dl where the 350 with the shorter brace height and shorter limbs thus longer power stroke is faster.
    Again just my opinion, if you can imagine both bows at full draw the axles of the cams on the 340 will be further back an inch making the bow more stable, maybe not by much but still more. again JMO.
     
  6. davidingle

    davidingle Weekend Warrior

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    Obviously the 340..
     
  7. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    yeh but why? Is it the limbs or the brace?
     
  8. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Its the brace. One thing I believe we also fail to mention is the deflex/reflex of the riser. Usually, to get the brace height down to say 6", we're pushing the limb pockets forward of the centerline or piviot point (throat of grip) of the bow. The further this distance is from the throat, the more torque has the ability to move the limb pockets/limbs etc. I believe thats why we see some bows with short limbs and less reflex in the riser; to maintain forgiveness at shorter brace heights.

    The hardest part that I had to re-read to wrap my head around is this. A 27" draw length, 6" BH bow has the arrow stay on the string the same length of time that a 30" draw, 8" brace bow. This is because to get the specified draw length for the brace height, you move the limb pockets/limb assembly forward or back (reflex/deflex). There is also a bit of the cam size and string feed out at play, but the reflex/deflex geomotry of the bow is more at play than anything.

    Sorry for all the posts. I get all geeked out on these types of discussions. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  9. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    well we have always been told that a longer brace is more forgiving and in my experience that is true.
     
  10. TeamFATBOY

    TeamFATBOY Newb

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    There are tons of variables and we could pick fly crap off paper all day but you question about the Destroyer 340 and 350 with the same riser, same ATA but different brace heights was a good example to use.
    Here's another good one to think about. The Insanity is considered a speed bow with an advertised IBO speed of 355 and 6" brace height but mine has 50 lb. limbs and only shoots around 260 +/- set up to hunt with. At what point is this bow not a speed bow? Still it's 15 FPS faster than my Z32 60lb. 7.25" brace single cam bow ready to hunt. But the Insanity is as easy to shoot and control because of the lighter poundage. Over think S**t much? I do! LOL!
     
  11. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Its funny going to my local shop and seeing the amount of people there that are completely over bow'd. High poundage, short brace heights, too long of draw length, etc. All to hit that magical FPS they dream of. I'm thankful I had some very good mentor's growing into the sport as a kid and also thankful for some of the folks I met on boards just like this one. They kept me from being one of those guys.

    As for the Insanity. I'm guessing that anythign under say 6.5" brace heights are considered "hot", regardless of the limbs on it. Tame speed bow maybe?

    There are quite a few things that make a bow forgiving, brace height being one of them. Finding a sweet spot between good performance and shootability is the key really. We're seeing bows that are sub 7" that are very shootable and fast as long as the bow is tuned properly and fitted properly to the shooter (aka not over bow'd).

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, we're seeing some companies creating risers with less reflex and shorter limbs to keep the brace height down, adding speed. These bows are a bit more forgiving this way since the pivot point and the limb pockets are closer to one another, limiting the affects of torque. Going the other direction for instance, with highly reflexed risers and short brace heights, magnifies grip induced torque.
     
  12. davidingle

    davidingle Weekend Warrior

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    I think the halon 6 exemplifies this. 6 inch brace height but doesn't shoot like it. Shortest limbs i've seen plus a riser that is bullet proof. Still has good speed but you don't see the limb pockets pushed way out front like say my nitrum turbo. The new hoyts did better with this than they have in the past with the new limb design and cam configuration.
     
  13. Rick James

    Rick James Grizzled Veteran

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    This.............

    One pic sums this up. It's riser geometry that dictates how forgiving a bow will be. Brace height is an old way of measuring this but isn't an accurate indicator based on newer riser designs.

    Guess which one provides more stability through the shot sequence and once at full draw? They have the same brace height........

    Brace.jpg
     
  14. Vabowman

    Vabowman Grizzled Veteran

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    humm...interesting...I never thought about riser design. Technology is erasing history!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  15. TeamFATBOY

    TeamFATBOY Newb

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    Technology is amazing and will have us guessing variables forever! Like non-parallel limbs vs. parallel limbs vs. beyond parallel limbs in conjunction to deflexed risers vs. straight risers vs. reflexed risers and so on.
    Geeezus! What the heck am I talking about? Now I'm really confused! LOL!
     
  16. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Ha, it can get very confusing. Then, throw in all the manufacturers "latest" and "greatest" named jargon they use to make us believe its really something special. Bowtech's Center Pivot risers are a great example of this. Flat out, I believe its bull crap. It is not a deflex design like they lead you to believe.
     
  17. SCFox

    SCFox Weekend Warrior

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    What do have against truck nutz?? LOL

    SCFox
     
  18. killer chill-r

    killer chill-r Weekend Warrior

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    I completely agree here with Justin. All the way down to the truck nutz!! In the really world how may people hunt with a 350gr arrow? Shooting a 350gr arrow is just like in the drag racing world where we push it to the ragged edge for just second.

    I was one that was bit by the speed bug, starting with an Infinite Edge then my Switxhback XT. Now the Switchback was & still is a dream to shoot, but that's when the speed bug bit. My Chill R was my first bow I really did an research on. Then of course I had to shoot the light arrow out of it, I believe I was shooting a Beman Speed at 360gr. Yes it fast, even faster when I put the 75% roc mods on it & I thought that the after shock & the little bit of vibration was normal, that was until I started shooting heavier arrows. Now I've been shooting Pile Drivers at 465gr with 85% roc mods & still shoots plenty fast,292fps. Heavier arrows also help my accuracy. Went from 3"group at 20 to cutting vanes at 40. My Arena 30 is the same way shoots the same but it is faster than my Chill R but I'm able to shoot a 486gr Pile Driver out it at 302 & it feels good.

    So I guess what I'm trying to say maybe is in my opinion & it's just my opinion & what I've seen from from experience going from a Switchback to a Chill R & Arena 30 is that maybe a speed bow can be just as forgiving as 7" bow depending on what arrow you shoot out of it & I could be totally wrong.
     
  19. JasonL

    JasonL Weekend Warrior

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    All the talk earlier of overdraws, prong rests, and string trackers.... I have a tackle box full of that stuff in the basement. I have my old bear polar 2 still setup down there in a case too. My first bow. A bow that is something like 46 inches axle to axle. It was old when I got it. Wood laminated limbs... talk about slow. My first deer and first buck fell to that bow. My first buck was a complete pass through. Slow heavy arrows did the trick on a few deer for me. Still have a bunch of old aluminum arrows too.

    Ahh memories ... ;)
     
  20. muzzyman88

    muzzyman88 Die Hard Bowhunter

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    Maybe we should begin to separate hunting from target attributes when we talk ab out forgiveness? Unless they're one of the zombies that have to shoot whatever bow the manufacturer wants you to shoot, you'd be very hard pressed to find many in the competitive world shooting less than 7" brace heights and even 35 ATA. Heck our very own Bowhunting.com front page brags about the Mathews shooters at Lancaster. Halon-x and Chill-x were the bows used by the top 3. 35" ATA, 7" BH. In other words, they weren't shooting no standard Halon for that.

    On the flip side is hunting applications. Whether we like to believe it or not, ultra pin point accuracy is not needed in the woods. We're trying to hit a vital area that is the size of a basketball. So perhaps less forgiving in exchange for speed is perfectly fine here? As I've mentioned, I like 7" as the happy medium. I get great speed (some bows that is) and I keep that string away from my heavy clothing that I find myself wearing as the season goes on.

    But as a whole, despite what the manufacturers try to make us believe, longer ATA and Brace Heights will always be more forgiving than their shorter counterparts. The geometry of the bow dictates this.
     

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