Most all outfitters have antler minimums saying that it is for the purpose of whitetails management. What are the facts about antler minimums and are they really managing the heard. I think those that hunt hard know that bucks can travel up to 10 miles during the rut. without a high fence, bucks are traveling onto other farms where some guys hunt for meat and not big bucks. So what do you think? did that deer you passed realy make it past another hunter miles away??
Some definitely do, while others do not. But they're certainly not going to survive and get bigger if you shoot them as soon as you see them. Zracer1129 and I saw a lot of really nice 2.5 year old deer this year. We passed on all of them. I have no doubt that most of these bucks will be shot, but I also have no doubt that there will be a few left for us next year, and then very few, but some nonetheless, the next year.
Gotta agree, take a chance that it will make it to the next season. True tophy hunting is an attitude that most just dont get. keep up the passin for a big one.
I agree that deer to move quite a distance during the rut, but I understand that they go back to their home area afterwards? Those guides are generally hunting on extremely large tracts of land, & the deer may stay on that. out west we're talking 200,000 acres, kind of land, so those bucks will stay where the does are, on their land. so year to year they can let them grow, along w/feeding them nutrients to help increase the size of their antlers. this is the first yr ever I passed on a small buck, hoping to shoot something alittle bigger. I shoot for the meat, & still have 3 weeks of guns season coming, so I wasn't pressured to shoot him. But if I needed him for food, he would have been down. I do take does. We eat 2-3 deer/yr.
Of course outfitters don't care about whitetail management.........they care about business management. I mean seriously, why would an outfitter care what you shot as long as you paid?? If you want to pay $4,000 to shoot a 4 pointer then he should be THRILLED.......leaves more big bucks out there to attract hunters and a dead buck is a dead buck. The only thing that hurts an outiftter is wounded game........when bone heads start sticking 3 bucks for every 1 they find then you are losing out because those other 2 bucks should have made you $8,000 and instead they are dead somewhere and wasted. Personal opinion on why outfitters are now commonly seen sporting the en vogue 140" minimum...........not for the deer and not for the management. It is a win-win situation for them. They charge $500-$1,000 penalty for anything under 140"........now MOST guys are surely gonna have trouble telling if a buck is 135" vs 140" as they are both likely to be seen as "WOW" bucks to anyone on an outfitted hunt who is presumably not used to seeing bucks that size on the hoof. Either way that deer is getting an arrow 99% of the time and it is my guess that the outfitter is PRAYING that tape says 139 6/8 so he can cash in another grand AND take some pics of a client with what is STILL a dandy of a buck. A friend of mine goes to a LARGE outfitter in Illinois and they call these bucks "ATM bucks".........cause that is where you are headed if the tape comes up a hair short. It sounds nice to say that an outfitter does it for the deer herd but the facts just can't sustain that........if they did there is no way in hell these guys would be boasting about 60%+/- success rates. Minimums are in place to make money...........nothing wrong with that at all, but it is what it is.
Actually a majority of the outfitters have a fee that you must pay if you wound an animal and can't find it. That prevents them from losing money, which directly supports your statements. It's all about the money.
The guys with penalties are still losing money if you kill a deer and don't find it.........just not as much. Some places have a "draw blood and you're done" policy that once that arrow hits a deer he is your deer.......find him or not. I would never go to a place like that because IMO there would be to many power grid searches of guys looking for deer they hit..........I mean, if I hit one and couldn't find it I sure as hell would cover every square inch of the woods looking for it until my week was up...........what does that do to the guy coming in the next week to hunt?? I don't blame outfitters AT ALL for heavy penalties for wounded game..........not really crazy about 140" minimums though.......I mean seriously, if a guy is putting 100 out a year and boasting a 60%+ success rate..........he is saying they are putting down 60-65 140"+ deer a year??? No freakin way.
With respect to everyones opinios and bad experiences..... for those that think Illinois outfitters have what some are calling LARGE tracts of land??? Are actually from the 80 acre up to a 300 maybe 400 acre tract and not 200,000. Without a HIGH fence there is no way to legitimatly manage whitetails. As for the bucks that visit hot doe on a property only to leave and go back to thier home range??? I guess what you would be saying is that trophy management is only beneficial during the pre and post rut seasons??? For tophy fines, trophy fee's and anler minimums. I agree that allot of outfitters put them in place for the sole purpose of making money and dont have the client in mind. your right on sayin that if a blue collar hunter doesnt know how to judge and passes on bucks in fear of paying more money,,, then the outfitter is hoping he will pass on the buck. Not only save the buck to impress the next unsure hunter but at least he got his money for the hunt. As for the guys coming to Illinois that shoots sevaral bucks and then judgin them on the ground. Those guys belong in jail and not in the woods. Minimums are soley for the outfitter that is out for his wallet and not the client. there are guys from other states that pay good money for a hunt in Illinois. these guys have never seen even a 110 inch buck before. So to them it is a trophy of a lifetime. I mean come on. why book a trip to disney if all you can do is watch the rides. As for the guys who BOAST about having a 60% success rate??? Well I personally guide in Illinois and dont put out 100 hunters a year and I have a 60% success rate. Oh Make that 65%. We just had more hunters in this last week for the second firearm season and they tagges out with some nice bucks. So is high success rates possible???? YES!! escpecially if the clients success is in the best interest of the outfitter. Not every one is out to screw the average hunter over. Some people really do care. As for minimums. I had a handicap kid in camp this year from Alabama that shot his first rack buck. Decent 7 point. didnt measure it and didnt care to. The trophy was the smile on his face. I think some people need to get hunting back to what it used to be,,, FUN!!!
I don't think you can truly say they AREN'T managing the herd. It may not be their primary objective, but if they start shooting 1 and 2 year old deer, they will NOT have shooters. If they get a reputation for having small deer, I assure you it is a LOT worse for business than injuring a deer or not charging for the ones that don't make P&Y. As for whether or not they are doing any good with the management, I'd say sure. Especially with the growing number of educated hunters out there. If they are in it for the business, odds are they have at least talked with their neighbors about it. They obviously can't require them to have antler minimums, but people are certainly more willing to do it on their own than they were 10 years ago. Sure, there are going to be many (most) deer that leave the property and get shot as yearlings, but that doesn't mean that they aren't going to do their part to ensure a higher quality herd. Whether you think of it that way or not, better deer IS better business.
The outfitter in Illinois that my friend used had access to a LARGE amount of land.........I'm sure they all don't but he does. That is the only reason I used that example, not as a general statement towards all outfitters there. I didn't read this anywhere in the thread......perhaps a misunderstanding?? My only point was when I see a guy preaching 65% success AND 140" minimum I get VERY suspicious if he takes more then 20 hunters per year........let alone 100!! If there is a small-medium sized parcel that can CONSISTANTLY produce 65+ 140" and over year after year I'd like to see it.......scratch that I'd LOVE to see it I didn't mean my comments to be negative towards outfitters........I have zero problems with them.
its not really deer management but antler management to most outfitters. Can't really put the blame on them because most of the paying clients will not shoot a doe for fear of spoiling a chance to shoot a nice buck that may be nearby.
I spoke with a guy just the other day that went on a hunt with an outfitter that operates in the same areas as we do. He told me he was in camp with 12 other hunters and he was the only guy who took a buck. Said the outfitter had a 140 minimum and his was green scored at the camp to a 131. Said he was happy with the buck but had to pay a $500 fine for shooting the buck. In his opinion a guy that pays for a hunt should be allowed to take a buck if he is happy with it. Now guys as you all well know. NO ONE comes to Illinois with the intentions or dreams of shooting a 1 1/2 year old buck or even a 2 1/2. But a 130 class buck is more than likely a 3 1/2 year old deer. do I personally think trophy management is essential. HECK YES!!! do I personally shoot anything onder a 3 1/2 year old buck?. HECK NO!! But every one is different about what they feel is a trophy. I guess my main question is.... If you paid good hard earned money in the 3000+ dollar range to take a hunting trip/vacation with the intentions of shooting a great buck,,, and a nice buck presented himself for the shot. Wouldnt you like to be able to shoot that deer without the hassle and worry of paying for a buck that didnt make your outfitters standards? wouldt it be nice to just Hunt without that kind of pressure. so would you look for an outfitter that allows you to hunt by his standards or yours??? Great hunting to you all!!!
man if it moves shoot it, it don't taste better if it has a bigger rack:d True though a dead deer ain't getting bigger. You got to let them grow.
LOL it doesnt taste better but it does show off better!!! I just want guys to know that I personally promote trophy hunting as well. I just know there are allot guys in this world looking to score on a nice buck. I mean heck man I have been hunting Illinois all my life and have never harvested anything bigger thana a 170. I too think allot of outfitters place minimums for the money and not for the managment purposes. I know personally know allot of outfitters that their own properties are surrounded by locals looking to shoot meat. Not to mention pissed cause an outfitter is across the fence. there for they got the attitude " IF ITS BROWN ITS DOWN". I guess why make a guys who has worked hard for his money pass on a buck he would love to have on the wall ( BECAUSE OF A FINE FOR A MINIMUM) only to watch a guy pop him on the other side of the fence??? Trophy hunters like myself need to keep the attitude of passing for the hopes of seeing him bigger someday. Otherwise be happy for the guy that was happy with something smaller..
