Are Crossbows Becoming Too Efficient for Archery Season?

Vabowman · Oct 9, 2020

BearArcher said: ↑

Vaboman - your signature line reads "Getting close to game is the essence of bowhunting". For the record, I have killed 4 deer with a crossbow, all from the ground and not in a ground blind. The ranges to those deer are as follows:

1st deer - 17 yards
2nd deer - 30 yards
3rd deer - 26 yards
4th deer - 13 yards

I have killed 5 deer with a compound bow. Same scenario. All from the ground and no ground blind. Except the 4th deer. I was in a low tree stand that was only about 8 feet or so off of the ground and the deer was uphill from me so the shot was a pretty level shot and not shooting down. Ranges as follows:

1st deer - 25 yards
2nd deer - 20 yards
3rd deer- 22 yards
4th deer - 30 yards
5th deer - 21 yards

I killed the 5 compound bow deer first and then switched to a crossbow and killed the other 4 deer last. As you can see, switching to a crossbow didn't change the way I hunt and didn't see me suddenly killing deer at extended ranges. Still getting close and the experience is the same. I have killed 21 other deer with a variety of different guns and from my perspective, the crossbow kills are much more similar to the compound bow than they are to any of the gun deer kills. And I am not saying that you specifically said this but that is why when I hear people say that using a crossbow is just like using a gun I have to wonder if the people saying that have hunted with a bow, crossbow, and gun and actually compared the experiences before they make that statement. Because if they did, I don't think they would make that statement based on my experiences.
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Your point is well taken. I can say that I have never hunted with a xbow. I have killed 64 deer with a compound, 175 ish with a shotgun, and 2 with an old hawken .54 ML. The bow kills were all pretty darn close. I don't think it really changes much with a xbow as far as the actual hunting style. the scouting still needs to be done and you still have to understand deer. the difference prep...and the actual shot. those are different. it goes as such...
hardest to easiest:
Traditional Bow
Compound
Xbow
ML
Shotgun
Rifle..
Of course this is my humble opinion after 30 years of deer hunting. I have never shot a deer with a xbow or rifle...

Bone Head Hunter · Oct 9, 2020

@Vabowman I have killed deer with all you mentioned below.

Traditional Bow
Compound
Xbow
ML
Shotgun
Rifle..

At the end of the day the dang deer didn't give a crap what killed it; cause dead is dead.

To cast any type of deer hunter as a lazy slob simply by the choice of their weapon is kinda-- do I dare say it in these trying times???

YEP discrimination LOL

Bone Head Hunter · Oct 9, 2020

One thought @0317.. isn't every bit of the technology you use on your bow and gear to make killing a deer easier for you?

Fix · Oct 9, 2020

Sorry buddy but most of that is silly pants.
1. Range if you are comparing vertical to X there is a significant difference. I have watched a guy stack bolts at 100.( Does he try to kill that far no but the rig could)
2. Yes it's not hard to draw a vertical but daddy can't draw it for me and send me on my way.
3. Optics... The fact that you can use them makes it inherently a benefit over vertical
4. Is the go to for all XBow hunters and I agree with for most. If you MEDICALLY or physically cannot shoot a vertical and it gets you in the woods to use a xbow awesome I'm all for it. We need hunters. But "Target panic" is not a valid excuse. It's supposed to be hard. That's what makes hunting great. The weather, the grind, the hours in the stand, the miles on the earth, the practice and the ethics all play a part in making it great.
I'm not anti XBow and anyone can do whatever they want but don't come here and down play what I do saying you can't do it but what you do is just as hard. Good luck this season.

BearArcher said: ↑

There are a couple of things I would like to address when it comes down to an individuals choice to use a crossbow or vertical bow. I have used both and I am familiar with both and several things jump out to me.

1. The range of a crossbow is frequently overstated especially if you don't have one of the expensive high end options. And even then, 50 yards should be the maximum distance that a live animal is shot at with any archery equipment in my opinion. Beyond 50 yards, the flight time of the arrow or bolt starts to become long enough that an animal can take a step, whirl to run away at the sound of the shot, or otherwise move in a way that turns a perfectly well aimed shot into a gut shot, leg shot, or other less than ideal hit. It's one thing to stack arrows or bolts on a static target 100 yards away but quite another thing to hit live moving animals at that distance. My personal maximum with either my compound or my crossbow is 40 yards. The other aspect that often gets overlooked is the trajectory of the bolt. Not everyone has or takes shots that are in a wide open field with nothing between the shooter and the animal. If you are hunting in the woods and attempt a long range shot, chances are that as the bolt rises far above the line of sight to hit dead on at 75-100 yards, it will get deflected by branches, vines, leaves, etc. Where the trajectory of a rifle allows you to pick a hole through the brush and thread the needle, that can't be done with a crossbow at longer ranges. Heck, I took a shot at a turkey last year with my crossbow at 35 yards and had the bolt hit a branch above the line of sight and deflect bad enough to miss the turkey by 10 feet.

2. The difficulty of drawing a compound bow when a deer is present is usually overstated. I mostly hunt from the ground (no blind, just a leafy camo suit) and even then, drawing the bow while deer are within range just isn't the big deal it is made out to be. Yes, you have to pick the right time such as when the deer's head is behind a tree, down below the level of the grass/brush, or when it turns so that it's head is behind it's body blocking it's view of you. But it isn't incredibly difficult. When you add a tree stand to the mix and are 15-20 feet above ground level, it is even easier to do. The supposed advantage of the crossbow not needing to be drawn when the deer is present is negligible at best and grossly overstated.

3. Scopes or optics on a crossbow aren't really a huge advantage. First off, magnification isn't needed at 50 yards and in. I could argue that a 4 power scope at those ranges is a disadvantage over no magnification at all. My crossbow has a red dot sight on it that has 3 dots in the non magnified window. A dot for 20 yards, 30 yards, and 40 yards. Not all that different than looking through the peep sight on my compound bow and seeing lighted pins for 20 yards, 30 yards, and 40 yards. If shots are kept within 50 yards (40 yards and in even better) as I stated in point number 1, the sighting system used whether crossbow or compound bow is mostly irrelevant. At those ranges any sighting system will work just as well as any other when the target is the size of a deer's chest and you aren't trying to shoot something as small as a squirrel's head or something.

4. Crossbows do give people the ability to ethically archery hunt when they are unable to practice as often as they need to with a vertical bow. There are many reasons that someone may not be able to put in the practice time with a vertical bow that has nothing to do with being lazy or anything negative like that. Some have been mentioned already and include work schedule, family commitments (multiple younger kids involved in after school activities or caring for an elderly parent for example), old injuries that might not rise to the level of needing to go to a doctor but still may affect the repeated drawing of a bow, lack of a safe place to practice regularly, and for me personally - target panic. If you have never experienced target panic when shooting a vertical bow, I hope you never do. And if you have and you have beat it, good on you. I have tried everything including blind bale shooting, drawing multiple times without firing, and several other suggestions. But with my compound bow, the more I shoot it, the worse my target panic kicks in. This creates issues when shooting in my back yard at a bag target as an errant arrow glancing off the target could leave my yard and hit something or someone outside my property. Therefore, I would often hunt with my compound bow after very little practice in the summer. Not ideal. The crossbow allows me to practice in my backyard without the fear of the errant shot caused by target panic and allows me to be a more ethical archery hunter when I enter the woods.

I find that the crossbow does have some disadvantages when compared to my compound bow. It is easier to move through the woods with the vertical bow. Much less awkward to carry than a crossbow. Getting off a second shot at a missed deer is much easier with a vertical bow. Darn near impossible with a crossbow. Other than that, I consider them to be about equal and don't consider one better than the other just a little different. If it weren't for target panic I may have stayed with the compound. But I'm glad that Missouri gave me the option to use the crossbow in 2016. And I certainly don't look down on anyone for using a crossbow for any reason and don't think their inclusion during archery season is a negative.
Click to expand...

BearArcher · Oct 9, 2020

Fix said: ↑

Sorry buddy but most of that is silly pants.
1. Range if you are comparing vertical to X there is a significant difference. I have watched a guy stack bolts at 100.( Does he try to kill that far no but the rig could)
2. Yes it's not hard to draw a vertical but daddy can't draw it for me and send me on my way.
3. Optics... The fact that you can use them makes it inherently a benefit over vertical
4. Is the go to for all XBow hunters and I agree with for most. If you MEDICALLY or physically cannot shoot a vertical and it gets you in the woods to use a xbow awesome I'm all for it. We need hunters. But "Target panic" is not a valid excuse. It's supposed to be hard. That's what makes hunting great. The weather, the grind, the hours in the stand, the miles on the earth, the practice and the ethics all play a part in making it great.
I'm not anti XBow and anyone can do whatever they want but don't come here and down play what I do saying you can't do it but what you do is just as hard. Good luck this season.
Click to expand...

This video pretty much destroys your point on number 1 about range:

As for your statement that target panic is not an excuse, would you rather I not practice with a compound and go hunt with it and wound deer that go off to rot in the woods? Or perhaps you are saying that if I can't overcome it, I shouldn't hunt at all? It's not a mind over matter thing. I have tried to overcome it and short of spending money I don't have on a some sort of professional mental assistance which seems like overkill for an issue related to a hobby, it does not go away and gets worse the more I try and fight through it. I don't have the issue when shooting a crossbow so in my mind it is better to practice with it and use it versus using my compound bow when I know I haven't practiced enough with it to become as proficient with it as I need to be to be ethical. Besides, in my case, I hunt private land that no one else has permission to hunt on other than family members. Why would you care if the deer I shoot on that land during archery season was shot with a compound bow or a crossbow?

Fix · Oct 9, 2020

Like stated above, I don't care what you or anyone does. My point is I do not believe that a X bow and vertical are equal. I take lots of new hunters under my wing and when it's a child, women, older person or person that can't pull back a vertical bow I am 100 for the XBow. I'm saying if you have money for a xbow then you have money for a release to.... You know what, I've had this argument so many times that I'm bored already.

BearArcher · Oct 9, 2020

Vabowman said: ↑

Your point is well taken. I can say that I have never hunted with a xbow. I have killed 64 deer with a compound, 175 ish with a shotgun, and 2 with an old hawken .54 ML. The bow kills were all pretty darn close. I don't think it really changes much with a xbow as far as the actual hunting style. the scouting still needs to be done and you still have to understand deer. the difference prep...and the actual shot. those are different. it goes as such...
hardest to easiest:
Traditional Bow
Compound
Xbow
ML
Shotgun
Rifle..
Of course this is my humble opinion after 30 years of deer hunting. I have never shot a deer with a xbow or rifle...
Click to expand...

I pretty much agree with your list. I have killed deer with everything on your list except traditional bow. Shotgun and ML are about a toss up though. On shotgun, it depends on if you are talking about a smoothbore birdgun shooting foster type slugs or a purpose built slug gun with fully rifled barrel shooting sabot slugs. On muzzleloader it depends on if you are talking about an old flintlock Hawken or Kentucky rifle shooting patched round ball or a modern inline using 209 primers with scope shooting 150 grains of pyrodex pellets and sabot round. That's why I say that the order for shotgun or ML go go either way.

Of course this could be extended to compound bows. Today's top of the line compounds put the Barnett compound I had in the late 80s with round wheels (no cams) and only 50% let off to shame and are much easier to hit with.

0317 · Oct 9, 2020

nope .. Compound or Traditional, I am still Hand Drawn -Hand Held and MUST draw in the presence of game ....

https://pope-young.org/bowhunting/position_statement.asp

LittleChief · Oct 9, 2020

BearArcher said: ↑

3. Scopes or optics on a crossbow aren't really a huge advantage. First off, magnification isn't needed at 50 yards and in. I could argue that a 4 power scope at those ranges is a disadvantage over no magnification at all. My crossbow has a red dot sight on it that has 3 dots in the non magnified window. A dot for 20 yards, 30 yards, and 40 yards. Not all that different than looking through the peep sight on my compound bow and seeing lighted pins for 20 yards, 30 yards, and 40 yards. If shots are kept within 50 yards (40 yards and in even better) as I stated in point number 1, the sighting system used whether crossbow or compound bow is mostly irrelevant. At those ranges any sighting system will work just as well as any other when the target is the size of a deer's chest and you aren't trying to shoot something as small as a squirrel's head or something.
Click to expand...

I'm going to stay out of the crossbow argument. It's a futile argument and there is no hope for either side to convince the other side that they are wrong. I'm on the record in previous years saying I have no problem with crossbows being legal during archery season and I'll just leave it at that. I have no desire to get dragged into that particular pissing contest ever again.

That being said, the above paragraph is just not correct. A scope makes all the difference in the world.

This is just my opinion, but I believe that the vast majority of bad shots made by vertical bow shooters is caused by failing to properly center the pin or sight housing (however they do it) in the peep because in the heat of the moment they get rattled. Same goes for no-peep shooters: They get rattled and don't anchor properly. That's not even a concern if you're shooting with a scope. You'll still get rattled, but if the weapon is sighted in and the crosshairs are on the target when you pull the trigger it's going to hit where you were aiming. You may or may not agree with that and that's okay. As I said, it's just my opinion. But let's forget about that.

The real benefit of a good scope in archery is that first or last 5 minutes of legal light or that first or last 10 minutes of legal light under a heavy canopy. For vertical bow hunters, it's all but hopeless. You need a lighted sight at that point and trying to line up a lighted pin through a peep while simultaneously struggling to see the deer in very dim light is next to impossible.

With a good quality scope, however, it's not a problem at all. Looking through good glass with crosshairs to guide your arrow in those conditions gives a well equipped crossbow hunter a huge advantage at that time of day.

pastorjim08 · Oct 9, 2020

I too will stay out of this argument because of the futility. But I will say this, love 'em or hate 'em, crossbows are here to stay. As a matter of fact, my prediction is that it is the future of archery. The main reason I say that is because 1. Most states have relaxed the rules on crossbows and 2. Crossbow companies have put millions upon millions into new products over the last five years. If they didn't think it was the future, they would not have done that. It's simple; follow the money. That's just my thoughts.

LittleChief said: ↑

I'm going to stay out of the crossbow argument. It's a futile argument and there is no hope for either side to convince the other side that they are wrong. I'm on the record in previous years saying I have no problem with crossbows being legal during archery season and I'll just leave it at that. I have no desire to get dragged into that particular pissing contest ever again.

That being said, the above paragraph is just not correct. A scope makes all the difference in the world.

This is just my opinion, but I believe that the vast majority of bad shots made by vertical bow shooters is caused by failing to properly center the pin or sight housing (however they do it) in the peep because in the heat of the moment they get rattled. Same goes for no-peep shooters: They get rattled and don't anchor properly. That's not even a concern if you're shooting with a scope. You'll still get rattled, but if the weapon is sighted in and the crosshairs are on the target when you pull the trigger it's going to hit where you were aiming. You may or may not agree with that and that's okay. As I said, it's just my opinion. But let's forget about that.

The real benefit of a good scope in archery is that first or last 5 minutes of legal light or that first or last 10 minutes of legal light under a heavy canopy. For vertical bow hunters, it's all but hopeless. You need a lighted sight at that point and trying to line up a lighted pin through a peep while simultaneously struggling to see the deer in very dim light is next to impossible.

With a good quality scope, however, it's not a problem at all. Looking through good glass with crosshairs to guide your arrow in those conditions gives a well equipped crossbow hunter a huge advantage at that time of day.
Click to expand...

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virginiashadow · Oct 9, 2020

I'm here to enjoy the woods.

Hunt on.

LittleChief · Oct 9, 2020

virginiashadow said: ↑

I'm here to enjoy the woods.

Hunt on.
Click to expand...

Not me. I'm here to kill deer.

Fix · Oct 9, 2020

Agreed let's save the BS for when we can't kill deer.

LittleChief · Oct 9, 2020

Fix said: ↑

Agreed let's save the BS for when we can't kill deer.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.

NorthmanJW · Oct 9, 2020

I never knew this was such a sore subject for so many people.

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Vabowman · Oct 10, 2020

I do not look down on a xbow hunter, but when someone kills a deer with a xbow, I automatically have a feeling of less difficult simply because they did not have to draw on an animal at close range. Same as a traditional shooter would say about me with a release and sight. there are levels of difficulty folks. why can't people just agree to that? No hate for anyone or weapon, just the facts. My compound is so much easier to kill with than my recurve. my compound is also harder to kill with than a xbow. accept it...that simple. I will say the whole "my shoulder" thing gets old, especially when a guy in his 20-30s is telling me this.. sorry, but just be proud of the xbow...it's kind of like when you ask a 19 year old if they are going to school and they reply, "well right now Im going to community college, but I plan on going to university",, who cares? no shame in community college, I went for two years before university and was proud of it ....just making excuses and hunt with the damn xbow if it's what floats your boat..
How bout this?
https://louisianabowhunter.com/the-painful-truth-about-crossbows/

Sota · Oct 10, 2020

You can not agree with 0317 however Pope and Young do not believe crossbows are the same as a bow.

BearArcher · Oct 10, 2020

LittleChief said: ↑

I'm going to stay out of the crossbow argument. It's a futile argument and there is no hope for either side to convince the other side that they are wrong. I'm on the record in previous years saying I have no problem with crossbows being legal during archery season and I'll just leave it at that. I have no desire to get dragged into that particular pissing contest ever again.

That being said, the above paragraph is just not correct. A scope makes all the difference in the world.

This is just my opinion, but I believe that the vast majority of bad shots made by vertical bow shooters is caused by failing to properly center the pin or sight housing (however they do it) in the peep because in the heat of the moment they get rattled. Same goes for no-peep shooters: They get rattled and don't anchor properly. That's not even a concern if you're shooting with a scope. You'll still get rattled, but if the weapon is sighted in and the crosshairs are on the target when you pull the trigger it's going to hit where you were aiming. You may or may not agree with that and that's okay. As I said, it's just my opinion. But let's forget about that.

The real benefit of a good scope in archery is that first or last 5 minutes of legal light or that first or last 10 minutes of legal light under a heavy canopy. For vertical bow hunters, it's all but hopeless. You need a lighted sight at that point and trying to line up a lighted pin through a peep while simultaneously struggling to see the deer in very dim light is next to impossible.

With a good quality scope, however, it's not a problem at all. Looking through good glass with crosshairs to guide your arrow in those conditions gives a well equipped crossbow hunter a huge advantage at that time of day.
Click to expand...

Ok...I'll give you that. If you spend the money on a nice scope then there is an advantage in low light. I was basing this on my own experience and I do not have a "nice" scope. I have a non magnified 3 dot red dot sight that came on the crossbow. This particular sight is actually a disadvantage in low light because even set on the dimmest setting, the tube you look through is filled with a red glow in low light conditions and you can not see your target. I definitely can not shoot 30 minutes before sunrise or 30 minutes after sunset. Sunrise to sunset is about it and the sight is more effective the brighter it is outside. Yes, I could spend money on a better scope or some other optic that didn't have this issue and I may do so in the future but for now, my reality is that I am not enjoying an advantage over the sight I had on my compound bow.

Vabowman · Oct 10, 2020

BearArcher said: ↑

Ok...I'll give you that. If you spend the money on a nice scope then there is an advantage in low light. I was basing this on my own experience and I do not have a "nice" scope. I have a non magnified 3 dot red dot sight that came on the crossbow. This particular sight is actually a disadvantage in low light because even set on the dimmest setting, the tube you look through is filled with a red glow in low light conditions and you can not see your target. I definitely can not shoot 30 minutes before sunrise or 30 minutes after sunset. Sunrise to sunset is about it and the sight is more effective the brighter it is outside. Yes, I could spend money on a better scope or some other optic that didn't have this issue and I may do so in the future but for now, my reality is that I am not enjoying an advantage over the sight I had on my compound bow.
Click to expand...

do you still hunt both?

0317 · Oct 10, 2020

Sota said: ↑

You can not agree with 0317 however Pope and Young do not believe crossbows are the same as a bow.
Click to expand...

wrong, many DO agree with me and my beliefs or similar ... there isnt one BOW hunter I know that likes the the damn things ... if one wants to use 'em, do so in the firearms season ...

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