point creep

I'll rant a little bit on this because I have this conversation daily (literally) with folks just like you all that are playing the point game. I'll speak to WY and MT mainly because that's where we do all of our tuff.

First and foremost, saving points in states like WY and MT for a "Primo" tag is absurd. There are three main reasons (for sure in WY, MT, NV and other states) that point creep continues in most of the "blue chip" areas and none of them have to do with the elk, antelope or deer in that particular unit. The first criteria is the amount of accessible public land. The majority of non-resident hunters are DIY guys (or gals), so the first thing they look for are the areas that have the most amount of accessible public land (this includes wilderness areas in Wyoming), simply to ensure that they have plenty of room to roam. Second, is the terrain that they'll be dealing with. While many people are "in-shape" enough to go wherever they want to hunt, the far majority are not. So if there are two areas that have the same amount of public land and access, there will be more applicants is the physically less challenging areas, period. The third criteria is the presence of wolves and grizzly bears (at least in WY & MT). The precautions that you have to take, whether it be with your camp, your food, getting your harvested animal out, etc. are all challenges that not very many people want to deal with. Finally, you get to the quality or quantity of elk (or deer, or moose or antelope... whatever). In all reality, much of the time, the "primo" has much more primo access and not necessarily primo animals. The other bad part about this, is that as humans, we expect bigger and more animals from areas that take more points. Unfortunately, the animals are the same caliber in a unit that now takes 10 points as were there when it took 5. So our expectations falsely grow.

We hunt areas 5 different elk areas that take anywhere from 1-10 points to draw. Year-in and year-out we kill the biggest bulls in the two areas that require the least amount of points of all our areas. One is a general unit and one takes 4 points. How does this make sense? The general units often times are above objective for numbers of elk, the state wants them killed. In many cases: the country is super steep and inaccessible, have a great deal of wilderness (illegal for non-residents to access without a guide or resident), or it is majority private land, so fewer people apply. These areas are not affected much at all by point creep. Max points for deer, elk and antelope in Wyoming is 13 this year, so the general tag took 1 point in the special draw, that means it's gone from zero to one point in 13 years... not bad.

Hoarding points is funny to me, people get attached to having high numbers of points and not actually going hunting. It's similar to how people gain an emotional attachment to a storage unit and pay $80/month for 5 years to store $500 worth of old crap but they're scared to dump it. If you aren't applying in the states that have random draws (meaning you can draw a tag without having top points) you should be. If you're looking to go hunt a respectable bull 280-320" and have a great experience, you're cheating yourself by waiting more than a few years to go on a hunt. It's also sickening to me that "dream hunts" are based on how many inches of antler or horn an animal grows and not based on the hunt and the experience itself.

As for the different types of point systems, they all have their flaws but as SDH mentioned, they were all put there with good intentions. Evermore, they were begged for by non-resident hunters that continually didn't draw in random draw scenarios. Unfortunately, hunter applications have increased tag numbers have been reduced in certain areas due to predation, winter kills, etc. and the points are creeping. I will say this is the first year in Wyoming that many of the elk areas didn't increase in required points to draw, hopefully that trend continues.

With that said, if you want to go on a hunt fore something, somewhere, there are a ton of great tags to be had that don't require a bundle of points to draw. I urge you to do a little bit of research and a lot of exercise and go hunting.

Dnoodles, I'm sorry but your uber-selfish way of looking at the draw systems is exactly why we're losing hunters. Why do you deserve a better shot at drawing a tag than youth hunter? You don't. We're losing youth hunters in the west to a million other things because they can't draw tags, so the fire that was built in many of us as kids isn't there because they can't get tags. So we should fuel the depletion of hunters because old guys "deserve" the tag more? Give me a break. And the states that square the points is probably the fairest of all. Everyone is eligible and those that have put in more times have exponentially more chances as drawing, how do you even argue with that?

 

So as much as I despise point creep and dream of that primos moment with that picture perfect opportunity...I took up elk hunting at age 50 and have been going annually for the past 3 years.

There are OTC and low point draw units tags available. They aren't "managed" for quality, trailheads may be crowded and it does require work and effort to get away from folks and into animals but...nearly everybody in our party see and have opportunities. Each year somebody in our party has had shots, and 2 of 3 years have gotten elk.

My old guy advice: if you want to play you can. If you want to play the points game you can. If you have flexibility to travel to different states and the $, there are a number of opportunities available. There are also OTC opportunities too, they will require work.

Good article here: https://www.backcountrychronicles.com/western-states-over-the-counter-elk-tags-non-residents/

 

I appreciate your very well-informed and thought out perspective. However you have completely mis-interpreted my perspective. I dislike points, but I also live in the real world where people have poured a lot of money into buying them. My proposal of some sort of points purge is to re-set the system and give everyone (or at least a lot more people) a realistic chance to draw at some point in their lifetime. Maybe not this year or the next, but maybe within the next decade.

As for being "uber-selfish"; well....I have not ever purchased points in my life. Only done OTC hunts. So this literally doesn't and likely never will affect me. I just hate to see hunters keep pouring good money after bad and the states keep feeding that beast. The states keep taking hunters' money hand over fist, driving up the average points needed to draw, and screwing everyone in the process on both the front and back ends.

Look I understand the way a lottery works, and that in the end its the hunters' decisions to keep buying points. However the states just keep dangling that ol' carrot. I think a lot of hunters just feel pot-committed and keep chasing that dream. As far as young hunters (or anyone who hasn't built up points) they, like you said, have plenty of OTC opportunities to dip their wicks into while the points purge would take its course. Then everyone starts out on more or less level ground.

Personally I think a true non-point lottery is the "fair" way to do things (with a penalty-box if you draw.) KY does it for elk, and I do put in for that every year. Again, never bought a point, just an entry into the lottery. When I invariably don't draw, I shrug my shoulders and get ready to hit it hard for deer.

I honestly probably won't ever buy a point. So my concern is not for myself at all.