I don't feel that you are being contentious at all but I do feel that to say that the civil war was only about "slavery" is incorrect. I feel that there were a lot of other issues involved and much more expansive than just the slavery issue. I feel that the root cause was the viability of the economy in the southern states and the failure of the southern states to get legislation approved or repealed that would assist their economic viability. Slavery was a part of that viability as you correctly stated but having the northern states with more political power pass laws affecting the southern states with less representation due to population differences caused a great deal of consternation in the south. Basically the south saw the north as ramming laws through that adversely affected them without any recourse other than seceeding. I just feel that there was a lot more going on than just the slavery issue. Southern "culture" may have produced laws that have been offensive to you but to associate a law banning inter-racial marriage as an indictment of all southern culture may be a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Now, I don't agree with a law banning inter-racial marriage and I do feel that God created everyone equal regardless of their skin color so don't misunderstand me. By the same token northern "culture" has produced laws that I may find offensive. To me, being from the south, your statement about the confederate flag representing culture that we should be ashamed of epitomizes differences still prevalent today between how the north feels and the south feels. Southern culture is much more than the slavery issue or an inter-racial marriage ban issue and I am really not ashamed of southern culture per se on a global basis. Are there elements I wish were different, yes. I don't display the confederate flag nor would I but if someone wants to do that it's really their business not mine. What is the next symbol of hatred that we are going to ban, someone wearing a t-shirt with a cross on it representing Christianity. From some of your insightful posts in the past I know that you practice an alternative religion other than Christianity. That is your right and I respect that if that is how you choose to worship, my faith tenets are different from yours but I respect your right to choose what is best for you. Again I will state that the confederate flag did not have anything to do with what that lunatic did. Taking the flag down does not accomplish changing these peoples hearts and minds and it would not have prevented this, it is a token gesture that don't mean anything and accomplishes nothing.
Agreed. I am a Yankee, born and raised, but I have seen several vehicles with the Confederate flag with "Heritage, not hate" under it. Many don't realize that the civil war was about much, much more than slavery. The emacipation proclamation (spelling?) wasn't even signed until several years into the civil war. There was black troops helping and even fighting on the side of the Confederacy! If you boil it all down to most basic terms, the civil war was over states individual rights and not be subjected completely to federal government. For some the confederate battle flag is about pride of being a Southerner. For others, it is used as a symbol of hate and racism, but was not the original intent. My wife and I got into a very good discussion about this not long ago.. many see the swastika and the iron eagle as evil, nazi Germany symbols.. many don't realize that several other cultures use the swastika as a symbol of prosperity and peace. I read somewhere, that a person had gotten a wedding invitation from a Indian friend. On the front of the invitation was a great big swastika. They immediatly got concerned and approached the friend about it. The friend explained that it is a symbol from long before Nazi Germany and that in their religion, the swastika was a good symbol. The iron eagle was taken from the Roman empire. Their legions used the iron eagle symbol for their legions as their standard. All symbols can be used by wrong people and turned into a symbol of negativity and/or racism. I attended a church with my friend as a kid. His parents were VERY religious, almost finatical about their beliefs, as was most of this church. The pastor or whatever their title was, was telling us kids, that the peace symbol is evil. Claiming that it is an upside down cross with the arms tilted or broken to angle downward to disguise it's meaning. He also said that the band KISS, KISS stood for Kids in Satans service. SMH.
Just to lighten the mood a bit too.. What is the difference between a Northern zoo and a Southern zoo? A Northern zoo has a description of the animal.. a Southern zoo has a description and a recipe. What is the difference between a Northern fairy tale and a Southern fairy tale? A Northern fairy tail begins "Once upon a time..". A Southern fairy tale begins "Ya'll ain't gunna believe this ****.." No offense was meant to any Southern members here, I hope it wasn't taken that way by anyone...
I have heard those arguments about Northern oppression, states rights, etc. a few times before. But the simple truth is that the Southern states had to become independent in order to gain control of their ports so as to allow the continued import of slaves. That was the reason for the war. Were it not for slavery, the war would not have occurred. I don't expect to change anyone's mind. I realize it's important for many people to believe that so many died for a higher cause. And I'm sure that many, if not most, of the men who fought, were convinced that they were fighting for a higher cause. But the simple truth is that those who organized the rebellion did it in order to preserve slavery. (I can't get smilies to work in my posts, so picture a big smilie here.) I'm only posting this to insure that no one gets the impression that I have been convinced otherwise. Unfortunately, that flag represents some unpleasant aspects of Southern culture that I mentioned. And I think many who wave it, so to speak, do so out of a nostalgia for the days when those aspects prevailed, Roof, for example. I've already said though, that I think those people are a minority. Discriminating against other races is not unique to Southern whites. White folks on Michigan's Upper Peninsula have a fairly negative attitude towards Indians. Funny story - I was once in a store in the Soo, when I noticed a clerk following me around giving me the evil eye. So I started talking to her and asking questions in a made up accent. She then relaxed and asked me where I was from. I told her I was from Japan and she said she was sorry, that she thought I was "from the reservation." I sort of wish someone would explain to me in detail what is different about Southern culture as opposed to Northern culture which warrants a flag. Some people do claim that Southerners are more friendly. But my husband, who grew up in the South says that's not true. Southerners may be noisier about it, but deep down, the feelings are no different. The people on the Upper Peninsula are very friendly and helpful. (Once they find out you're Japanese and not "from the reservation.") And the people in our neighborhood are very cool. And is every Southern state the same? Don't they have their own state flags? We have one with an elk and a moose on it and a man holding a rifle in defense of freedom. Alabama could have one with an image of Nick Saban. I just think the time to drop the confederate flag thing is done.
I hope some of you all don't take this too personally but when I went to college some of the most racist persons I met were from the north. I kid you not. Not sure how this meshes with the flag debate but it sheds light there are undercover racists everywhere, regardless of flags, geography, or color. Also, I ain't letting any stupid flag or anything else an manipulate me mentally toward a person's skin color. I ain't no weak minded Jedi.
I wish we could stop talking about racism and start talking about the flag. The flag has nothing to do with racism in 2015.
I think the flag is history and that's all it should be to an American in 2015. I own one but have never hung or flown it.
Well I live in North Carolina just over the border from SC. I think the flag needs to come down for two reasons. 1) Its not the state flag of SC. Ok just fly the US flag and the state flag below. problem solved. If the confederacy symbols are in your flag, that is history and if your residents want it changed it's their business. Adopting a symbol to be flown over your statehouse that is offensive like it or not is wrong. 2) Its just one of those symbols that has been perverted by ignorant people. Sometime you cant change it. The swastika was an indian symbol long before nazi Germany. However, nobody would like to eat at an indian restaurant that had a swastika flag. Also, I have found the least racist areas of the country are the western states, period. Its a combination of history, homogeneity and the libertarian streak of minding your own business. By far the most racist areas are the northeast. People still freak out when "black" people move to certain areas. I have worked in places like Long Island and Staten Island and New Jersey. Those areas while espousing the idea of inclusion define the very defination of redlining and gerrymandering. People freak out when non-whites except asians move into "their neighborhood". Second most racist areas are rural areas down the appalachian spine. I thinks its a combination of education and poverty. I found this map and it matches my experiences. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...racist-places-in-america-according-to-google/ Time change so do symbols. There will always be jerks and racists in South Carolina just like in New Jersey, but just take the flag down.
The flag has everything to do with racism in 2015. Its all it has to do with. I live here. Educated, Corporate employed middle class folks in Columbia, Charleston, Raleigh, Charlotte, Winston etc dont fly the stars and bars, neither do african americans who have lived here for 200 years. Poor mostly uneducated racist white folks fly the flag. If you want to let everyone know you are a libertarian anti big government person fly the "dont tread on me" flag. If you love SC fly the Palmetto tree flag. To think otherwise is a delusion.
If the flag has anything to do with racism does that mean everyone that flies it is a racist? Of course not. Some people that fly the flag are raciest. Some are not. It doesn’t mean you are raciest if you fly the flag therefore it does not represent racism.
Read my first post. Its funny coming from a guy in Wisconsin, it probably does mean something different there. Young dudes rolling coal in their f250 with "rebel" flag. I get it. I am not saying everyone who flies the flag is racist. However, to not admit the flag has been perverted by racist causes therefore people find it offensive now is ignorant. Fly it at your own house and explain to passwerby's what it means. However, what I said earlier stands. It was the flag of the Northern army of Virginia. Has nothing to do with SC today. Merely a holdover of sticking it in the eye of the feds from days gone by. Likely for perceived transgressions like desegragation, voting rights etc.
Exactly...! This is not directed at anyone what so ever. I'll just let this out. We take this flag down, what's next? I could care less about the flag myself. Just bothers me that so many are crying about, but I hardly see anyone complaining about idiots stomping on my American flag. Heck, I've seen numerous pics of the awful KKK marching with the American flag lately on Facebook. I'm offended by some things, I don't cry about it and want everything taken down or outlawed. All the people/kids I see flying it or stickers on their trucks around here, Its more of.....hey, I'm Southern Boy/ Redneck type thing. I know its stupid, but its their right to be stupid. I don't own the flag and never have. Doesn't interest me, cause if any of you all heard me speak....you'd know I was from the South.....lol Sent from my XT830C
I believe a disproportional amount of people that fly the flag are probably raciest. But that doesn’t mean the flag represents racism. Two different things.
I am still trying to figure out what cause(s) people are supporting by flying the flag. It still has not been explained enough for me to understand.
Honestly, I don't think the ones flying are supporting a cause. I think they see it as the Southern flag. Kinda like you said earlier, it shouldn't be a North/South thing....but the type of folks I see flying it here.... Take it as as that. Sent from my XT830C
The confederate flag is just a piece of fabric to me. Yes, some racists use this as symbol of slavery, but there's also a lot of non racists that use it as a symbol of where they're from. I live in PA and still know people that have license plates, decals, flags, etc. Removing the flag is not going to magically change a mindset. It has more to do with kids following in their parents footsteps for several generations.
It would be nice if it were that easy. I've been fortunate to live in the North, South and West and there really are some significant differences. Sure, we're all proud to be Americans, but there are far more differences that run deep into these different cultures to be a giant hugging country full of fluffy puppy dogs and rainbows. Why does it have to be black vs. white, women's rights vs. men or conservatives vs progressives? That's the way it works because the principles of respect, discipline, hard work, taking responsibility for your own actions, loving people for being people and treating people the way you want to be treated have all but vanished from out society. Without those principles, hate, greed, anger and self-pity manifest into incredibly damaging and violent emotions and actions. This country is too far gone to ever be "brought back" anyone that thinks otherwise is wearing blinders.
