I didn't read all of this thread, but some stuff jumps to mind. One, lay off the does. Shooting too many does is bad, real bad, for an area. Bucks are just like single men, if there is a place a few miles away with more women, they go to the area with all the ladies. So do the bucks! You want as many does on your land as possible. Two, I am from NY too, and around here, (probably everywhere) there are trespassers. These guys drive around glassing for deer. Now if your land has a few really good bucks on it, guess where these trespassers are gonna be...on your land! A few years back there was a truly massive 10pt on the land I hunt, and word got out. Come opening day there was a guy in every tree, I have never seen so many trespassers! The deer was shot about a mile away, scored 180 and change. Hunting in the real world ain't like hunting on Lee and Tiffany's TV show. You can't pass 3.5 year old, 120 something bucks. If you do you will wait a LONG, LONG time between deer, and life is simply too short for all that! Now I ain't saying shoot a 2.5 year old 80"-90" deer, but for me anything over 100" or so is a deer I would be proud of, and I ain't passing on him!
Yes, the claim is that fewer does as in a situation where sex ratios are near 1:1, drives the bucks to be more competitive for available does and therefore makes a more aggressive rut cycle and activity. Personally, I think the bucks will just breed all the does available and enlarge their range to find more does. I do not completely subscribe to the QDMA's sex ratio guidelines. I like the organization and many aspects of their management stuff but not their ratio engineering. I think it's wrong headed, counter productive and potentially dangerous in most circumstances. If deer in an area are too thick for the carrying capacity of the land, then I would agree with the premise...My feeling is that QDMA and the conservation organizations have fabricated the sex ratio guidelines geared more towards population control than "increasing rutting activity". Maybe it's just because it basically goes against my ideas of game management being centered around lots of food and high populations.
I have only been able to get a bonus tag 1 year out of the last 5 years so not able to maintain any balance. I complain all summer about just getting does and fawns on camera. I usually have 8-10 does and fawns all summer then there is a point in late October where there are closer to 20 young deer. The bucks will come and find any concentration of does, best bait in the world.
Great topic Atlas So, I've reigned in my definition of "shooter" these past few years after thinking that holding off on mid-range bucks(100-120) would allow me to shoot the top end ones for my areas. (130+) Well that was just foolish when I realized my opportunities on mid-range bucks were just as few and far between as top end ones. I hunt a very diverse set of properties across 2 states. Ones where you could legit have a 150+ walk by, and ones where a 100-105" would be huge. But for shortness sake and relevance to your OP, I'll only focus on the land I own in Ohio. We have a small chunk of 50 acres, settled in some prime area. Our neighbors are FAR more selective on bucks than I could ever dream of being. There are no shortage of mature bucks on our trail cams, and some are easily 140+. This past year was the 1st season in 5-6 that we've owned the property that I've taken a buck on it. It did not score that high, but he looked mighty impressive as he walked in. So I shot him and could not be happier. Over that time period I didn't have a single opportunity at buck over 100". I don't care if we have 100's of night time pics of a 200" buck (hypothetical, as we don't) but I'm going to shoot what I can realistically put myself in front of, not what MIGHT walk by just because it's there. I like shooting deer and managing my realistic expectations. Give me a 110-120 buck nearly every year over a 130+ every 8-10 years.
my theory on does is if there are less does in your area, then the bucks have to work harder and travel more to find the does, thus increasing your chances of seeing more bucks on their feet which increases your chance of getting a shot.. just my opinion. Now I'm not saying shoot every doe you can just be sure to harvest a fair amount every year
That's just it Fletch..........I/We honestly don't think we made a single bit of difference and most likely just wasted a year of sitting in the trees watching bucks go by we should have killed. This will be our 6th or 7th year there I believe and we have yet to SEE a single buck for more then one year. We have had multiple encounters in a single year but not one (that we know of) from year to year. Anything is possible but certainly not a buck that was easily identified from years before. As I said though I'm just not sure the two are connected in any way...........at least not on our land. I/We believe now that any chance we have on BIG bucks will happen either way or they won't. Passing up bucks certainly eliminates the chance of not having a tag to spend when Mr Big strolls out but that hasn't happened to any of us four over the last 5-6 years so is it a realistic things to fear???
We haven't shot "small" bucks in over 5 years there..........just no reason. We have killed a bunch of good 2-3 year olds in the 110"-130" range. Our goal last season was to tag something on the next level of 140"+
I/We enjoy the hunt as much as anyone..........in fact just being together at the cabin for a few months a year is better then anything we ever drag out of the woods. The kill is not the goal for us but we aren't out there busting our butts all summer hanging stands, trimming lanes and planting food plots for the heck of it. It's HARD work and many hours with thousands of dollars being invested in lime, seed, stands, fuel, machines and time. If I want to just sit in the woods and watch the sun rise and set I can do that 30 seconds out my back door. Make no mistake about it..............we are there to kill some deer, fill the freezer and tag some bucks. If the best we can hope for is one of us tagging a top end buck every 3-4 years then in no way shape or form is the investment of time and money worth it. We would be better off going on an outfitted hunt every year and being fed home cooked meals in a beautiful lodge with one or more of us likely to tag a bruiser every year.
That sums it up pretty well.................we didn't feel pressure so to speak and we certainly still enjoyed ourselves. It just didn't feel like we were hunting most days as leaving the cabin in the past was ALWAYS exciting as the potential to fill a tag could happen any sit. This last year we all went out almost feeling doomed from the start. Many times during gun season I went out with my handgun because I KNEW I wouldn't need my rifle. We also didn't shoot any does early as we were hoping they would draw in a big boy snooping around or if we had enough of them around the chance of a hot doe would be higher. This left us with probably a handful of days where we actually agreed to kill something given the chance. We filled all our doe tags in just a couple days...........those days were a blast not because we killed some deer but because it felt like we were actually hunting..........going in the woods with a purpose.
Why??.......this assumes the bucks you are killing are the ones you've passed up. I have already stated we have zero known encounters with identifiable bucks from years past (cams or encounters). Not only that but wouldn't the same logic hold true if ANYONE else in the area is passing bucks as I/We have just as much chance of killing them as anyone else. I'm being totally serious.............The ONLY logical reason I can relate passing on bucks to killing BIG bucks is you don't want to get caught face to face with a monster with no tag in your pocket. Other then that they are mutually exclusive acts as far as I can tell. I'm sure some guys have land where they see the same bucks year after year after year but that simply is not the case for me..............having said that do you still think passing bucks would somehow result in more bigger bucks being seen and tagged by us?? We don't feel it was................it WAS. I'm not really sure what being able to pass them has to do with it because we were obviously able to let them walk this past year. It's simply a matter of investment vs. reward. If you had to starve yourself all year just to lose 2 lbs you would never do it. If you had to invest $10,000 to get $10,500 back in 5 years you would never do it. We can all romanticize how much we love sitting in the stand.............but sooner or later you have to look at things rationally.
I don't worry much about our ability to kill those bucks.............I think that is something that is GREATLY overstated on boards like this and the hunting community in general. Not sure how long you've been around or if you had a different name before but those of us that have been sharing tales for the last 15 years or so have seen way too many guys come and go that the community in general would gloss as "good or better" hunters then the masses and without fail the deciding factor was ALWAYS location. Once those hunters were removed from the comforts of said honey holes they magically dropped back to the middle of the pack. We have also seen those elevate their land and big surprise they start killing bigger bucks. I have killed 3 of the biggest bucks (for me) since moving on to better land 6 years ago. Ask Rick James how he magically became a better hunter simply by moving from NY to Illinois. Sorry for the rant.............don't mean to get off topic but I am a firm believer that most guys are more then capable of killing what is out there. All that changes is what's out there. Outfitters prove this point a thousand times a year........I mean, one of our neighbors kill a 172" buck this year and he is a tool that is lucky he can find his way back to the cabin. Anyways.................again, sorry for the rant and in NO WAY did I mean that in a disrespectful manner towards anyone you named as they are all fine hunters I'm sure. As I said.............I have no doubt in our ability to kill what is out there. I don't believe for a second that monsters are walking our ground every year and we just can't find a way to kill them. We THOUGHT passing bucks would be a way to up our chances..........in other words improve what's out there. We now believe that was a flawed approach and I'm looking for others experiences and input on whether they feel the same and if not..........why??
Life's too short, and the seasons pass quickly...hunting should be primarily about having fun with family/friends. I've come full circle on the "trophy hunting" ride...shot a few good ones during that phase, but too many years letting my hunting skills deteriorate. Now with kids starting to carry a weapon - I push for them to shoot every deer that gets them excited...and we're having a ball. Your dad should not pass up any more bucks IMO - I'd rather have multiple pictures of my dad smiling with a 6 pt...then one pic over 5 years with a 150"er. It's another reason I can hardly stomach any of the whitetail shows on TV...WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON SCORE. Might be time for you to get West and chase some elk in the mountains (much cheaper than owning land)
I'm sure you saw the deer I posted walking by my stand bro.............no joke, I NEVER thought I would pass on a deer like that in NY. The problem we have...............and I take GREAT hesitation in even calling it that knowing that 99.9% of guys in our state would KILL to have such a "problem"............is that we have a LEGIT potential to tag a beast on our land. That has never been the case for us before acquiring this land. There aren't too many places in NY where you can say you have a REALISTIC chance at seeing a 150"-170" deer each and every time you go sit in your stand. Now I say realistic because I KNOW they are there, and more then a needle in a haystack. What I think we may have overestimated is what effect if any our actions will have on the frequency of that encounter increasing. There may very well be things we can do to increase our BIG buck encounters but passing good mid level bucks in the hopes they return someday doesn't seem to be the logical way to accomplish that in our experience.
It's not that we are "out for" a 150" buck.............or any number for that matter. We are at the point that EVERY hunter gets to when analyzing their land after a bunch of years. We can take bucks in the 1115"-130" range EVERY year I would say........not all of us of course but someone will have a chance to kill one somewhere along the way. We averaged 2 nice bucks of that size every year for the last 4 years I would say. Now if you had told me that 10 years ago............that I would have three of those bucks (and a mid 130's killed on my home land as well) I would have never believed you even for a second. But boys will be boys and sooner or later you get content no matter where you are. Believe me when we tell our "tale of woe" to our friends and neighbors they all laugh at us and tell us to shut up and enjoy what we have. I love ALL the bucks I have killed and can recount each days hunt in the blink of eye when looking at each rack. Some are 4 pt and some are big bucks. I have never been obsessed with antlers and never will be. The fact remains that we are in a place now where we have a LEGIT chance at a beast.............we thought we were helping ourselves try to up the odds of that chance by passing bucks. We now believe that was a stupid mistake and we wasted a season of "hunting" premium land. Not because we are upset we didn't kill the ones we let walk..........we have all killed enough bucks for a lifetime.......it's more like we have an awesome resource and voluntarily chose not to use it for a year for some reason.
We have 40 acres of thick woods we have deemed a sanctuary that a human (to our knowledge) has not set foot in in the last 5 years. Again, not sure if this is helping us or if we are just wasting 40 great acres of land. I have hunted many times in zone 7H and that public land is some of the best in the state. Good Luck
